Question: where these coins struck from the same dies? (Zoom in)

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by Mr Ancient Coin, May 10, 2022.

  1. Mr Ancient Coin

    Mr Ancient Coin Active Member

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  3. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    Best Answer
    A hasty overlay but it makes the point. Outline of the slabbed coin's features over the unslabbed coin.

    CT-MrAncientCoin-PhilipIIStaterOverlayDieMatch.gif
     
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  4. Dafydd

    Dafydd Supporter! Supporter

    In MHO I say remarkably similar but no, two different dies. I have noticed a couple of differences , the first being the length and end of the lock of the first long lock of hair between the rear and front of the beard has a longer 90 degree bend. The longer I look, the more differences I see not attributable to wear, but from a quick glance they appear identical.
    I guess potentially a die could be recut during use to take into account wear but there is also one dot in the letter between the front raised hoof that is ovaloid and the other is round.
     
  5. Dafydd

    Dafydd Supporter! Supporter

    That was a lot of fun though.......
     
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  6. Mr Ancient Coin

    Mr Ancient Coin Active Member

    Thanks! I still think these are die matched. Too many of the same small imperfections to be a coincidence in my opinion.

    the bead spacing and same bead break on reverse bottom left.

    same bead indent near top at 12:00ish on obverse.

    same bump/ inclusion on upper forehead on obverse

    same hair curls on obverse.

    Same die crack near horses tail on obverse (zoom in, it’s in the exact same spot on both, from butt to tail :))

    same dot on reverse bottom left with the same bead break.

    this is either the same celator or same dies in my opinion
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2022
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  7. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    Yes, obverse and reverse die matches.
     
  8. Mr Ancient Coin

    Mr Ancient Coin Active Member

    Are die match coins rare?
     
  9. DCCR

    DCCR Member

    They are the same dies, although the lower coin is at an angle which makes matching them slightly trickier when overlaying them. The die break at the top of the nose, and the one on the top pellet (between the leaves), suggest the same obverse die.

    > there is also one dot in the letter between the front raised hoof that is ovaloid and the other is round.
    That's just die wear.
     
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  10. TIF

    TIF Always learning. Supporter

    Best Answer
    A hasty overlay but it makes the point. Outline of the slabbed coin's features over the unslabbed coin.

    CT-MrAncientCoin-PhilipIIStaterOverlayDieMatch.gif
     
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  11. Mr Ancient Coin

    Mr Ancient Coin Active Member

    Wow! Thanks! That’s really cool
     
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  12. ArtDeco

    ArtDeco Well-Known Member

    Wow wow, very elegant examples and a die match is absolutely amazing.
     
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  13. ominus1

    ominus1 Supporter! Supporter

    well done TIF..:)
     
  14. Dafydd

    Dafydd Supporter! Supporter

    This is SO impressive!
     
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  15. Victor_Clark

    Victor_Clark all my best friends are dead Romans Dealer

    not really
     
  16. Ocatarinetabellatchitchix

    Ocatarinetabellatchitchix Well-Known Member

    1E7A2C28-59CB-4F1F-A40A-69100C872524.jpeg
     
  17. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    Nope, not at all. There are of course exceptions for specific types but, in general, no. I often find it odd if I can't find a die match but I don't collect particularly rare coins either.

    At one end of the spectrum you have coins that are so common and were minted over a long period that it can be a pain to find a die match due to the share number of examples (e.g. Athenian owl tets - though I have found die matches myself). At the other end, you have coins so rare only a few examples are known. Still, die matches aren't unheard of then as multiple examples of rare coins might be from the same hoard, thus more likely to be from the same dies.

    This Philip II type is more in the middle - it's a super common posthumous type with the dolphin and gamma but there's not so many examples that it will take a long time to find a die match either. You can also tell from the worn dies that they likely kept using the same dies for a long time.
     
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  18. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    I guess mine is in that group as well
    Kassander Ar Tetradrachm Amphipolis 317-305 BC In the name and types of Philip II of Macedon. Obv Head of Zeus right laureate. Rv. Youth seated on prancing horse right. Le Rider pt 46 17-18 Troxell Group 9 323-325 14.10 grms 25 mm Photo by W. Hansen kassandertd3.jpg Over the last few weeks I have been going through the on line catalogues found on the Neuman Numismatic Portal as well as r Numis. I have noted that there have been a rather large number of this type in auctions during the 1990's and the early 2000's principally on sites like Superior Galleries and HJ Berk. I suspect that the reason for this influx of similar coins would be the dispersal of a hoard. While it is true that in most cases finding absolute die matches in ancient coins is unusual, a hoard which was deposited very soon after the coins were minted could change that. There are a number of coin types that I can think of such as the MAI issue from Himera and one fairly common issues from Leontini where virtually every coin known of that type is from a single pair of dies.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
  19. Roman Collector

    Roman Collector Supporter! Supporter

    Lovely coins so far!

    The only thing I can add is this terrible tourist fake cast in base metal.

    Philip II of Macedon fake.jpg
     
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  20. Kaleun96

    Kaleun96 Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by "absolute" die matches? In general I don't think finding die matches is unusual at all. Do you mean where both the obverse and reverse are die matches or something else?
     
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  21. Terence Cheesman

    Terence Cheesman Well-Known Member

    In response to @Kaleun96 What I mean is that one or both dies on a given coin is a die match. What I stated above is that die matches are unusual in most cases. However it is not impossible. What I was trying to point out is that; when I sees a large number of coins sharing the same die, that phenomenon is usually the result of a hoard which was deposited soon after the coins were being minted. I gave a couple of examples however there are many others. One example is this one.
    Leontini Ar Tetradrachm 440-430 BC Obv Head of Apollo left laureate. Rv, Head of roaring lion left surrounded by three barley grains an an ivy leaf Boehringer 55 HGC 671 17.34 grms 25 mm Photo by W. Hansen leontini1.jpg Though there may be other dies of this particular issue known the vast majority are from this obverse die which is easily identified by the dramatic die deterioration in the hair of Apollo. This group was probably from a hoard the majority which was owned by NFA. When the Athena Fund was liquidated in a series of auctions in late 1993 a large group of these coins entered the market. So many in fact that I remembered being able to piece together the sequence of the deterioration in the die.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2022
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  22. Mr Ancient Coin

    Mr Ancient Coin Active Member

    Wow, looking at the reverse of your coin (the die breaks / lines going from horses tail to butt, and the broken beads and dot on reverse bottom left) it looks like it also is a die match.

    I just acquired the bottom coin in my first comment so we are die match bros! :)
     
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