Question on US Trade Dollars???

I have been looking at certified and graded Trade dollars that have been graded by pcgs and ngc. But some of them show hair line cleaning like scratches is there a certain amount of this that they will allow with out kicking them from being graded? I ask becuase I have a nice 1876cc ddr that I have thought about having graded but I think it might get kicked by pcgs or ngc because it does show some hair lines probably from an old cleaning more so on the obverse of the coin then the reverse. But again I am looking at ones that are graded and I am seeing some lines in those???

 

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Can you post pics of the coin?

 

There you go I put some pics up. They are very fine lines and you have to hold the coin at certain angles in the right light to see them well.

 

Are you sure this coin is genuine? Where did you buy it?

It looks like it may have been polished or whizzed. Sometimes counterfeiters will polish or whiz their cast counterfeits to remove the casting bubbles. It's hard to tell from your photos but I think I can still see some casting bubbles here and there. Can you post larger pics?

 

I have checked it out under a microscope for casting bubbles and there isnt any. I purchased it on ebay and I know the risk you take in doing that but I have a scale and a microscope and many books to reference I have ran into a couple fakes on ebay and I just returned them. I am just trying to decide where I want to send it to get it graded I would like to send it to pcgs or ngc if they wont kick it for the hair lines if you think it will then I will send it to ncs or anacs and it should get graded but labeled as cleaned.

 

eBay, huh? Where was the seller from?

 

I purchased it over a couple months ago it does not show anymore. Why do you ask? If you are wondering if it was from out of country I know it wasnt that I do US only.

 

I agree, even if this coin is genuine, the surfaces are not. Polished IMO. If you send it to get graded, send it to PCGS, and just hope it comes back GENUINE. It won't come back with a grade.

 

If there are any major coin shows in your area, take it to a TPG's table and get an on the spot opinion, which will tell you whether its worthwhile to submit for grading.

Looking at things like the star directly above the one at 9 o'clock, the "420" on the reverse, and the whole appearance of the reverse bottom, I'm not very optimistic.

 

Thank you for the opinions I will send it to pcgs and post the results when I get it back. More opinions are welcome and don't forget the the coin has the double die reverse so keep that in mind when looking at the reverse. It will be interesting to see how accurate everyone is.

 

Yep. No way those are original surfaces. A problem coin worth maybe 1/3rd the value of a problem-free coin with same detail / sharpness.

 

I agree with Lehigh (in this case :hail: ).

 

p.s. trade dollars, IMO, are one of the series that TPGs are very lenient on cleaning and other problems. The thought being that if they only slabbed problem free examples, there would be very few in slabs. I'm not saying that I agree with the policy, but rather just trying to share my observations.

 

I agree with that but I don't think leniency is going to help this coin.

 

I concur, Lehigh -- I'd estimate the chances this coin sees a graded PCGS holder at less than 5% (and certainly hoping to be wrong!). Just wanted to try and explain the OP's observations on slabbed trade dollars.

 

I agree.

Perhaps that's true of other series as well, especially early gold and silver (and to some extent, copper). There are plenty of heavily dipped CBHs in slabs.

 

Here is a link to a discussion of the "tells" of genuine and fake 1876-DDR Trade dollars. http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=648178

From what I can see, the coin in the o.p. has all the characteristics of a genuine coin, but with evidence of cleaning/altered surfaces.

 

Agreed. Add to the list virtually any proof prior to 1800, where obvious evidence of cleaning most people would describe as "harsh" is ignored in practice.

Hmm, now that I think about it....

Mike's TPG Grading Postulate: The amount of looseness a TPG defines the term market acceptable as is directly proportional to the age of the coin and inversely proportional to the surviving population.

L(TPG)=(m*A)/pop(coin)

L(TPG) is the market acceptable looseness factor of a TPG
A is age of coin in years
m is Mike's constant -> 1.52379E-7 looseness*year/coins
pop(coin) is surviving population of coin

Just some food for thought....Mike

 

For some reason, that "food for thought" just keeps getting bigger and bigger the more I chew on it....

 

I can never get them quite right the first time.

I have an iterative writing style for some reason (perhaps because I really learned how to write on a word processor).