Question on MS 70 Grading

I recentl purchased a gold buffalo rated at MS 70 first strike by NGC. Once i recieved the coin and look closer with a magnifying glass, I realized on the obverse side, at the very bottom, on the edge, there where some scratch marks. I'm fairly new at purchasing coins that have been graded, but I thought MS 70 was suppose to be perfect. So my questin is, How can NGC rate it MS 70, or do the tiny little scratches on the edge not really matter.


In this picture you can seen the tiny little scratches below the buffalos feet on the very edge.

Please give me some info.

thanks justin

 

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In many places where I've read about grading coins... They told about MS-70 that it was "theoretical perfection". Meaning that it was in the first uses of the die, with perfectly calibrated cylinders, with especially high pressure (therefore slow motion) on the dies... Blah blah.. And that the coin was picked with gloves directly from the press and was put in an airtite holder so that there would be no trace of other coins hitting it, or even the bag in which one it would be stored...
They say, therefore, that MS-70 is never used... or maybe almost never used.

See
http://www.canadiancoincertification.com/grades-en.htm
http://www.coinoisseur.com/GradingCoins.html
These are canadian links, but the rules must be the same for grading other coins... Well, I guess.. and hope so..

:hail: Max

 

You need to ask Speedy directly!

 

I dont belive in MS70

 

MS 70 Exists, if Nickolay were her today he would tell you so. Perfect is perfect is perfect

 

I am too much of a perfectionist to belive in MS70.... Coins that are struck are dropped into a bin of other coins, that instantly makes them to an MS69 to me. Flaws in the planchets, dies, anything, they all make it impossible for the coins to be perfect down to the microscopic level. So I dont belive in MS70.

 

They do exist and are not dropped into a bin anymore! This is big business with the Mint since the mid 70's hence all of the many of the premium coins do exist. The earliest recognized date and coin in 70 , was a 1986 America Silver Eagle in the 70 condition. There are some thousand 70's before and after that, do not rule that out young one. Tesla is The Man!

 

I suppose its rare, but possible.... very rare.... but maybe possible, but I wouldnt count on it.

 

I've always heard a flaw on a planchet doesn't apply to grading because the planchet isn't a coin. Therefore ruling out planchet flaws when you grade.

A very small minority I believe...

B

 

Great topic.

Let's remember that the Mint is a manufacturing operation, just like Royal Doulton China. How many PERFECT china pieces do you see ?

Over time, a given manufacturing operation improves its technology and practices, and the product also improves. The US Mint first used collars around the planchet in 1838, and immediately the quality of US coinage improved. This is reflected in higher prices for better pieces before 1838, as there were more manufacturing problems.

So how does the latest technology affect the quality of the newest US mint product ? How many MS70s (or PR70s) are they cranking out ?

Well, more than I thought.

NGC publishes all of their Census data, so here's where we go to find out...

http://www.ngccoin.com/poplookup/

PCGS, on the other hand, restricts their census to "members only".

I arbitrarily chose American Silver Eagle Bullion, Ultra Cameo only.

Once I had that page, I selected the whole thing, and cut / paste into an Excel spreadsheet.

And here is what I found...

Total PR UC made since 1986 : 163,129
Number of PR69UC + PR69UC* : 125,232
Number of PR70UC : 35,585 (!) - almost 22% of total !!!

In earlier years, there were FAR more PR69s than 70s - in some cases, more than 30:1 ratio. As the years went on, the proportion of PR70s increased (as expected), until...

In 2006, there were more PR70s than 69s !!!

Total PR70s (First strikes + regular) : 9,868
Total PR69s (First strikes + regular) : 7,726

I agree with prior posters - PR70 should be the highest possible standard.

But whether it is rare or not depends on manufacturing quality at the Mint.

AND, of course... strict standards at the grading services !

 

Well I don't think there is such a think as MS70 or PF70....and I don't see how this one got the grade with the rim damage--but since gold is really soft maybe NGC decided to let it slip by.

Don't read that---that isn't how they get MS70---in fact the mint could care less if it made any MS or PF70 coins.

Speedy

 

Where is the info that they don't drop the coins into bins anymore?....I haven't heard this and would love to read it.

I would agree but I don't think this is a planchet flaw---if I'm talking about the same marks he is....there is about 3 rim nicks right below $50.....it looks like it was dropped in a roll or whatever with the other coins and that is what nicked it.
Another reason I don't think its a planchet flaw is this---when a planchet is made it is smaller than a normal coin so when it is struck the metal flows out and becomes the right size....so if there was some rim nicks on the edge of the planchet I would think that with the flow of the metal and such that it might cover them up.
Maybe I'm totaly wrong as I haven't searched this out---I've seen one of the new $50 Gold Buff's in person so far and I didn't really like it too much

Speedy

 

When I mentioned planchet flaw I meant overall picture. The coin in question is MS-68 at best.

B

 

I agree. If it's 70, how can they let ANYTHING "slip by".

Cheapens the distinction for the real 70s. And lowers their market value... guilt by association.

 

Hmmm. Depends on philosophy, I suppose.

Some people think the grade should drop ONLY due to things that happen AFTER the coining press ... thus planchet flaws are OK, but bangin' around in a mint bin is NOT OK (nicks, etc).

But to me, any errors in the manufacturing process - before or after the press - are errors, and drop the grade.

HEY ! That would make a good rap song...

"Any flaws of any kind
I'm droppin ya down to 69"

 

David Hall (PCGS Owner/Brain Trust) used to have lots of PCGS graded MS-70 coins for sale on his website www.davidhall.com There are none listed now though or maybe I didn't look correctly.

B

 

So to answer my question. Even though NGC rated it at MS 70. Is it really MS 70 with those types of scratches?

 

I agree---sorry I mis read your post---with the rim nicks I can't see it going over 68...I think if he can return it for another one he should....

There has been topic after topic on CoinTalk and they are all talking about who...PCGS or NGC is harder on the 70's....PCGS hasn't graded as many 70's as NGC but the reason is what no one knows...is PCGS harder on their grader or do they have a limit of 70's that they will grade that way they don't lose their name in the hobby

IMHO no it is not....if you have a return on the coin I would return it----don't worry about getting a first strike as that is really alot of hog wash anyway.

Speedy

 

IMHO, no. It can't be, with macro-imperfections of any type or origin.

YOU are the final arbiter of the grade... not the seller, not the grading service.

And down the road... subsequent buyers will probably be very picky with PR70s.

 

I was incorrect in saying that. I believe only proof coins are handled in a special manner.