Question about reverse marks - morgan dollar

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by expat, Aug 22, 2020.

  1. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    I know there are a number of Morgan collectors here but this could equally be an issue those familiar with the maintenance of dies can answer..
    This 1902 - O has, around the eagles left wing tip, a series of deep gouges. Are these heavy polishing marks on the die or die wear? They do not appear anywhere else, just around the wingtip.
    DSC00028.jpg DSC00027.jpg heavy die lines.jpg
     
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  3. ldhair

    ldhair Clean Supporter

    It looks like die damage to me.
     
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  4. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well if it is the same marks will be found on many others of the same date/mint. And if they are then it should be, stress should be, a known VAM.

    I'm curious what John would have to say - @messydesk
     
  5. kanga

    kanga 65 Year Collector

    I would have said "die polishing" but if it doesn't show elsewhere on the coin then I'm not so sure.
     
    GeorgeM likes this.
  6. bradgator2

    bradgator2 Well-Known Member

    I spent a view minutes on Vamworld and didnt see anything obvious that matched. There are a TON of Vams for this date/mm.
     
  7. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I'm not sure what caused those marks. I say that because, at least to my eyes, they appear to be incuse. And if they were on the die and produced incuse marks on the coin then they would have to be raised on the die. And the only way that could happen would be if they were incuse marks on the hub. And that, well, that's pretty dang unusual. And if they were on the hub then most of the dies from that date/mint would all have the same marks. Which means all coins from those dies would have them too.

    Now since I've never seen marks like those on that date/mint coin before, it seems highly unlikely that's what they are. But at the same time it also seems highly unlikely that those marks, given their location and look, are post strike damage. Which is why I'm not sure what caused those marks.
     
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  8. messydesk

    messydesk Well-Known Member

    I think the photo is exaggerating these marks, possibly making them look like something they aren't. They should be metal flow lines, as I can see signs of die fatigue in the full-coin picture around some of the lettering, but they look too pronounced and they have an incuse look to them.
     
    ldhair likes this.
  9. CaptHenway

    CaptHenway Survivor

    I would want to see a better picture to be sure, but it appears to have been some sort of problem with the planchet. The problem with this theory is that I would expect to see the continuations of the lines on the wingtip.

    We really need to see better pictures, perhaps with the lighting from different angles.
     
    ldhair likes this.
  10. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    Wow, great conversation piece hope the consensus can be agreed upon.
     
    GeorgeM likes this.
  11. TheFinn

    TheFinn Well-Known Member

    Die polishing would show raised lines on the coin. I think these are all damage on the planchet. Look like striations from pulling the strip out where it was grabbed by pliers.
     
  12. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    OK, Sorry for the delay guys. It is now late Sunday evening here in Spain.
    Apart from varying the lighting, is there a particular angle you would like to see, or shall I show a variety of angles
     
  13. expat

    expat Remember you are unique, just like everyone else Supporter

    Several angles with varied light source and a couple of close ups from the microscope
    DSC00348.jpg DSC00350.jpg DSC00351.jpg DSC00352.jpg Annotation 2020-08-23 210954.jpg Annotation 2020-08-23 211240.jpg Annotation 2020-08-23 211448.jpg DSC00354.jpg
     
  14. CaptHenway

    CaptHenway Survivor

    Thank you for the extra pictures. I am now convinced that the lines were in the planchet prior to the strike.
     
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  15. thomas mozzillo

    thomas mozzillo Well-Known Member

    I agree with the Captain, FWIW. :)
     
    expat likes this.
  16. GeorgeM

    GeorgeM Well-Known Member

    Also, as no one has mentioned it yet, I think they add an interesting feature to your already beautiful piece.
     
    expat likes this.
  17. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh - maybe. But as I've already said I don't have an explanation. And I'm skeptical because, typically, most marks on a planchet are obliterated by the strike. Or at the very least somewhat so, even severe marks. And those, well they just don't show any sign of it. Severe planchet marks in the fields should be pushed in, partially closed by the strike and metal flow, and those appear to be too sharp, too distinct.

    This is one those that leaves me shaking my head. And those don't happen very often. But they do happen.
     
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