Possibly counterfeit pesos?

Hi!

I bid on these two coins the other day on eBay, and got them for quite a bit under what melt would be if they are real, which further aroused my suspicions that one or both are not.

One is an 1894-H Guatemalan peso, and the other is a 1903-S Philippines peso. They both weight 25 grams, which is correct for the Guatemalan peso but not for the Philippine peso, which should weigh 26.9568g. Now, there is a pretty large gouge in the edge, but something makes me doubt that that accounts for it being almost 2 grams under normal (however the kitchen scale I am using is imprecise, so it's possible that it's on the higher end of 25 grams).

The only other thing that makes me question this that the rims look a bit odd in some places, like there's a gap that then goes away. You can see this by the word "Republica" on the Guatamalan peso and by "United" on the Philippine one.


What do you guys think?

 

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I don't see anything that screams fake. The weight of the Philippines Peso seems low for the amount of wear. Neither of these are considered rare or of high value so I couldn't imagine them being counterfeited but stranger thing have happened. Melt for the Guatemala is about $11 and $12 for the Philippines.

 

Get a better scale.

 

They don't look right to me.. Especially with the lettering on the Philippine peso.
I will compare them to some I have when I get home tonight.

Edit: Here is one I posted the other day

 

That's what I was thinking as well. The Philippines peso doesn't look at all like some of the very obvious counterfeits I saw when I looked them up.

Good advice, I used to have one but I'm not sure where it went. Probably time to order another one by now.

That's interesting to hear, I appreciate it!!

 

Here is a 1903 for comparison.

Notice how much more crisp and refined the lettering is.

 

Yes, that's definitely interesting. They look a bit more "flattened" on mine. Do you think that could be attributed at all to wear, or do you think it's definitely something else? Another thing I noticed is that the mint marks are placed slightly differently, though this could be a normal variation.

 

I have a 1903, with a lot of wear, at the house. I will look at it when I get home.

 

Both look very fake to me. The Philippines peso has clear evidence of being struck from a transfer die, the Guatemalan is likely also a transfer die replica. I'd check if they are even made of silver, they do not look it.

Edit: Wanted to add, the flatness of details you mentioned is the result of the transfer process, finer details get lost. If you look at the Philippine peso, to the top left of the P in peso, you can see that the field continues above the dentils. This is also caused by the transfer process, as part of the dentils were cut off on the transfer die used to strike the fakes.

 

They appear to have been cast, not die struck.

 

What is the evidence of a transfer die? To me, the Philippines peso definitely looks silver in hand. I did the ring test and they both resonate when struck lightly together, not that that's definitive proof.

 

Could definitely be a transfer mold as well as a really crappy die. The details are poor enough for either one lol

 

Since the general consensus is that they are in fact counterfeit, are they modern or contemporary counterfeits?

 

I would guess modern. I doubt they were faking these 100 years ago.
These are 20 and 30 dollar coins now, may not have been worth very much to put all that work into making 1 peso coins 100 years ago. (Slight profit.)

 

Thanks for the info, you're probably right. Now I have to figure out if I'm going to take any action on eBay. I feel bad about starting something over $16.50, so I'm not sure if I will or not.

 

I would take action. As fakes they are worth nothing. $16 could go towards a real one.

 

I sent a message to the seller, hopefully it won't be a big deal. Now that I look at them again, I think the edges should have been the biggest giveaway. They just don't look right, as if the outer edge with ridges was affixed separately or something.

Edit: They responded and said I can send them back for a refund, but that they certainly never claimed they were silver and certainly never claimed they were genuine
Some people...

 

*facepalm* people like this give me the heebie-jeebies. A lie by omission is still a lie.

 

Agreed. I somewhat get someone not being aware of eBay's "no replicas that aren't clearly marked as such" policy, but if you're not sure if an item you're selling is authentic, you need to state that in no uncertain terms at the very least. "I don't know anything about these" in the description doesn't cover that, in my book.

 

Buyer: "Hi, the coin is fake"

Seller: "Never said it wasn't"

This just sounds so shady and downright silly.