Possible solution to the fake slab problem

I think it's time for NGC, PCGS, ICG, ANACS and any other legitimate slabbing companies to come together will all the dealers, auctions houses, and ebay. So they can come up with software that tracks the sales of all label numbers, and this would be stored in a computer data base. When the computer picks up on a certain label number that was sold it would know what company sold it and to whom.
If a label number has sold on ebay then the same label is sold by Hertitage then it would through up a red flag, and both companies can be contacted, and the seller and winner by email or phone to check out the purchase. Since this doesn't happen often, if very rarely in the near future, it would not be that much of a hassle. Even bidders who buy slabbed coins can opt into the program to protect themselves.
I just don't see any other way that can't be duplicated besides forming a network of buyers, dealers, grading services and auction sellers. And it might end up becoming a mandatory network to buy and sell slabbed coins.

 

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What about dealers? You can force dealers to list coins in this system. Also what about the crack-out artists? So person A buys serial number 1, cracks it out, tosses the label. Then person B lists a different coin serial number 1? Assuming the same type coin for the serial number. Or worse yet - person A buys serial number 1, cracks out a MS coin, replaces it with AU coins and then resells it. Plus there are a lot of dealers who list generic coins on their ebay auctions without a serial number - like when they sell PCGS silver eagles. So I know your intentions were good, but there can still be ways around it.

 

Sounds a little too Big Brother to me.

 

Wait (?) Would a purchaser not have to re-register it every time? If I bought it from Bob's Coins, and it was registered to him, then I sold it to an individual collector, who sold it to another collector, who sold it to a dealer that put it on eBay...? How many transactions are we talking about? How long does the coin stay in the data base? If a dealer wants to put it back in the data base, would it come up as a duplicate?

I am a bit confused as to how this would work, as individual coins are traded all over the place.

 

Question is, how much is the added cost to this? You know, any additional thing you want to do will result in extra cost. Who will pay for it? Consumers? At what price are they willing to pay extra?

The only company I can think of that is successfully doing this are the major credit card companies but you can only imagine the level of money they are dealing with. Of course, you know what consumers pay. Big bucks.

 

sounds like a good idea, however tracking those slabs/ sells would take a system that focus on there transfere, some-one would have to pay for that service. again a good idea, thanks Ozarktravler

 

I just do not understand how we would keep re-registering the coin. If it is in a data base with a serial number, we would have to register it like a car every time it was sold. If not, it would fall off of the system.

Also, how does this protect us from Chinese slabs with phony numbers? With so many slabbed coins out there, we will still buy coins that are not in the data base.

This is like guns. If the government suddenly starts mandatory tracking of all new guns by serial number, there are still millions of pre-1968 guns in circulation. They will not be in the data base.

 

No system is perfect, but changing within the current system has more holes the my possible solution.

The slabs would not have to be registered over and over, but only once. Soundscan has been doing this with CDs and movies for years to track sales. Anything that protects anyone's investment, hobby or business would want to be a part of it.

If someone cracks out then the companies could offer a small rebate if they send the broken slab(s) with their submission. I think PCGS offers something for cracked out slabs anyway.

The chinese fakes use real label numbers, and any seller, buyer or business can check the data base, to see if the label still exist and the history of when, where and how it was sold or if it's a cracked out number.

Any grading company, that has a population record, can enter these label numbers into the data base.

As far as cost is concerned, people pay companies to protect their identity, and it's one of the fastest growing businesses in America. I don't think collectors of slabbed coins would mind paying a small fee to check coins they want to bid or buy. It would be similar to car fax reports. No one wants to buy a coin to find out it's fake. Who is to say it would cost extra anyway?

It's not perfect, but it's a concept that needs consideration.

I repeat, the coin is not registered to anyone, just the data of the sale so the slab can be tracked.

 

So how is that "tracking" a coin. I guess I am missing something.

 

It would be similar to how sound scan tracks CD sales, but a little more detailed, or just how the credit card companies have your every purchase in a data base.

 

I'm confused, too.

When you say "when the same coin (i.e. certificate) is sold on E-bay and Heritage, it raises a red flag", what do you mean ? Doesn't this happen legitmately all the time ? I might buy on Heritage and sell on e-bay the day after receipt.

Also, coins can move pretty quick from hand to hand. Dealers at shows are shuffling stuff around with great frequency. How would you enter that into The System ? Each transaction needs to be tracked ?

What about when me and a buddy work a deal, sitting around on the patio ? Would we be expected to register the sale ? Very few people would bother, and enforcing it is both infeasible and undesirable.

 

It make be undesirable to you, but if you care about the hobby of slabbing coins then you should do anything to protect the hobby. Why let a foreign scam artist jeopardize what we love the most?

 

I don't buy slabbed coins, but if I had to come up with a solution, I'd go with this. The problem with labels, is as has been mentioned, they are interchangable, and a real label can be placed in a fake slab with a fake coin, and quite easily. So, to remedy cracking genuine coins from genuine slabs and replacing a paper label, why not incorporate a label by laser etching it directly into the slab itself? The same type of coding that atm cards use could be implemented, with ever-changing codes to prevent duplication. It's cheap technology and might solve a few problems. Just my two cents.
GUy~

 

A descent counter solution. We need to think of something other then how it can't work, and think of ways we can protect our hobby.

 

Great Starting Idea. . . if everyone added something there has got to be a way. : )

 

greetings!,
not to be hated, but here goes....i think reputable grading companies are wonderful for authentication.
i think we need to spend more time on grading and learning a coiin series than a label on a coin. a coin is worth what the buyer is willling to pay. look at all the ms63 coins and see the differences, yet the same grade.
buy the best you can afford, establish a price it is worth to you, just make sure you are happy exchanging X amt of money for coin X.
a slab is a safe way to store a coin, but a coin's appearance is exactly what it is. learn your series and learn to grade....remember...everyone wants your money!!!! buy the best you can afford.
as far as buying the coin, if you are in doubt of the slab (authenticity or perceived grade of the COIN), buy from a reputable dealer or get a guarantee that can be backed up...... otherwise......pass. other coins will come along. only my own opinion.
best wishes,
steve

 

Your preaching to the choir with "Learn how to grade" and "slabs are good for storing coins". It's not that simple. I can grade almost every series, and learn more about the finest of details on grading all the time, but so many new people enter the hobby weekly, that it's too late when they bid on a fake slab on ebay and win it.

I would rather have the experts protect our newbies and the oldies who haven't learned yet.

 

While I think that it is good that DoubleDie is thinking about solutiond to this problem, I would not like to have my purchases recorded. Many of us want to be anonymous in purchases of numismatics and bullion. If I had to be listed as a purchaser on a data base, I would not buy slabbed coins.

 

Unless your paying cash without a receipt, your purchase is being recorded anyway. But mu suggestions doesn't need to have addresses, phone numbers or names anyway. Just the state and town.

 

This entire situation is useless. I've never had a coin purchase recorded anywhere and I've been a collector for well over 60 years. If a dealer anywhere even suggested that I leave a name, address, town or even country, I'd pass on that sail. I to to over 2 coin shows a month, sometimes many more and never seen anyone recording a sale. Even those that pay with a check or credit card there is no real record of what is purchased and the possible millions of times one person sells to a friend, nieghbor, relative, etc. there is no record of that anywhere. As to slabs I always just break the coins out so those slabbs are gone now too.
Now maybe what we could do is place a GPS chip in all the slabs so someone could follow those coins everywhere. Of course if one of those little powder bombs were in the slab, like the ones they put in with cash at banks during a robbery, then when opened to replace the coin, POOF. :smile
What about a radioactive piece of Uranium in a Lead cover that would automatically open when the slab is opened. POOF, no more crooks.
OH that can't work, all the Lead is in China to make toys.