I know these things have been discussed here in the past, but I'm just going crazy. I'm looking to buy a Jackson's Liberty. I've been searching eBay for a good deal. Anyway, I decided to search some of the completed listings to see how they have been selling and I was shocked to see the difference in PF69 vs PF70 pricing. As an example, here is a ANACS PF69 DCAM (horrible picture) that sold for $521 (remember, the issue price is $619.95) http://cgi.ebay.com/PROOF-69-ANACS-...286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:13|39:1|240:1318 Next I found a PCGS PF70 DCAM that sold for $1200, more than double the price! http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-W-10-JACKS...286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66:2|65:13|39:1|240:1318 I'm no expert on coin grading by any means, but isn't that insane? From what I've read, different coin grading services will give different values. So if I sent that ANACS PF69 to PCGS, it's possible it'd get the PF70 and it's possible the PCGS PF70 would get a PF69 from ANACS, right? Is there any way to explain this massive price difference, or is it just people being crazy?
Possible yes, probable no. Yes there is a way to explain it. 69's are common, 70's are not. So people are willing to pay outrageous premiums for the 70. Some do it because they are convinced that the coins will be worth much more in the future - in essence they are gambling. Some do it because they want to score points on the PCGS Registry and it is worth it, in their eyes, to pay to be able to do that. And as you suggest - some are just crazy.
Well I guess, here is my question. What is the difference between a PF69 and a PF70? You say one is common and one is rare, well what makes it so rare?
No, I said one was common and the other was not. Not quite the same thing, but I understand your point. But to answer your question the thing that makes the 70 uncommon is that PCGS grades very, very few of them as 70. Some believe it is because PCGS has higher grading standards for the 70 grade. Personally, I believe that PCGS intentionally refuses to grade more than a few of the coins as a 70 in order to maintain the mistaken public belief that they have tougher grading standards than NGC. In effect I believe PCGS uses a quota system. That is what makes coins slabbed by PCGS as 70 uncommon.
I completely agree with this statement. For a long time, I really wanted to pick up slabbed 70 modern coins, then I realized the difference between a 69 and a 70 was so small it just wasn't worth the premium. I don't own a single 70 and I don't think I ever will. If I want a choice example of a modern, I'll look for one graded 69. But, remember...buy the coin not the slab. Look at the coin, is the strike as good as it should be? Are there any marks that jump out to you and that you find distracting. If a coin is slabbed as a 69, it should be nearly flawless. Find one that doesn't have any marks that jump out at you. You will have a coin that you can't tell the difference between it and a 70 and will pay much less a lot of the time. As far as TPGs go, I really prefer NGC. I think they are more consistent than PCGS.
Is what I've firmly believed but have never been able to articulate that well! Though I don't think such behavior is limited to PCGS. This behavior of TPGs of deciding what gets a 70 and what doesn't based on how many coins they want to grade 70 and not based on the condition of the coin itself (if it meets their standards for a 70, it should get it, no matter how many 70's that means they'll be releasing) causes a disconnect between the assigned grade and the coin's actual condition. One more reason to stay away from slabbed coins... especially those graded 70 that sell for prices way out of proportion to what they really should be worth. If you can get a coin graded 69 that is almost as good as a 70... for a LOT less... why would you ever want to buy a coin graded 70? Unless you just want to buy your way into a registry (another big TPG scam IMO!).
I actually think this is quite brilliant. They are creating a supply (the grades) and a demand (the registry).
Mark my words. At some point in the future, they will institute "half grades" for everything MS or everything above MS-64. So we'll have MS-66.5 and so on. Think that's silly? Check out PCGS's sister company is sports card grading - PSA - they now have "half grades". Think of all the breakouts!
I agree with everything said - most notably buy the coin not the holder. I also agree with Danr - unless doing a registry set then stick with a 69.
I've collected old comicbooks for many years... so what happened a few years ago? Someone got the bright idea that they would grade and slab comicbooks like they do coins and sports cards. So CGC (Comics Guarantee Corp.) was born. Unlike coins and cards, comicbooks have an interior. Now you buy your books in a slab so you can't open the book and read it, but you get to pay a ridiculous amount of money for a book that would be 1/100 of the price of the same book "raw". They have a ten point grading system which is really a 100 point system since grades are given in tenths (i.e., 8.6). So.... buy a book for a few bucks off the rack, submit for grading, hope for a perfect 10, and if you get it... well, sell it on eBay for a few thousand dollars. I hate it. I can't understand the frenzied desire for perfection. I like my books like my coins... well worn and able to handle.
Thanks for the info on comics. I was not aware of all of that. I suppose that the slabbing of comics is good in that it preserves them for future generations.
I submitted 5 2006-W dollars to ANACS. I had looked as close as possible and was convinced that all were 70s. They all came back 69. I bet if I submitted them enough times, I could eventually get 70s on all of them. I'd compare it to lottery tickets, 70s take more luck than perfection In My Opinion.
It has always been my opinion that the only difference between a coin graded 69 and one graded 70 is the opinion of the one doing the grading. You could have five people looking at the same coin and four say 69 and one grader says 70 I am not willing to pay the big difference for that opinion. You should not have to pay more for what a coin is wroth just because it comes from a TPG at least that is the way it seems to me.
you know, If you put a PR 69 coin in a 70 holder.. and a 70 coin in a 69 holder. and TOLD the buyer that. They would still pay the premium for the 70 holder because they want the slab to say the big 70. they are paying for the slab, and paying for the respect they think comes with it.
Now, to most, THAT would really be both confusing and upsetting IMO. It's hard to tell a 69 from a 70 now; imagine trying to distinguish between a 69.5 and a 69.9, or worse a 69.9 from a 70!! :headbang:
Personally, I refuse to go with either. For mint issues, I only buy in OGP. I've always thought professional grading was a scam so I refuse to buy into it. I'm not buying coins as an investment, so if it looks good to my eyes, I'm happy. Mainly, I was just interested in knowing what the differences between a PF69 and PF70 are. I've seen hi-res images of both, and I can't spot the difference!
Yes - it is completely crazy. Your paying for a label and a grade not based on a validated process. Ruben
Even though it is a scary thought, I don't think it is realistic. One reason is the size of the grading scale. Even though PSA has done it for sports cards, cards were graded on a 10 point scale...so adding a fractions of points does help distinguish the cards. With the 70 point scale we use, I can't imagine any more is needed...we have 10 points for MS alone. But, who knows.
