PCI becoming DGS

DOMINION GRADING SERVICE

DGS LINK

And apparently owned and operated by David Lawrence.

OPINIONS???

 

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The site says they will use Photograde standards to grade coins, which are more strict than the old PCI standards. I don't know how that translates to MS coins. The slabs look good and they have addressed the counterfeit slab issue. Looks promising.

 

I agree in all my dealing with David Lawrence his reputation has been impeccable.

 

How long will it take for them to be accepted (like PCGS, NCG, etc...)? Plus, are their fees more reasonable than other companies (I did peek at their fees but I don't know how much all the others charge, just a few)?

Ribbit

ps: Are they planing on or already accepting "problem" coins?

 

Impeccable reputation or not, David Lawrence is a dealer and there is an inherent conflict of interest in a dealer also being in the grading and certifying business unless he never sells coins certified by his own grading service. That might be difficult if the grading service turns out to be successful.

 

Hmmm, neat. I haven't bought any thing from David Lawerence, but he does seem to have a good reputation. I hope they are good, the fees look very reasonable. :thumb:

Phoenix

 

'Nuff said.

 

So they are not a TPG,they are coin graders like every other dealer then..... The difference is, they do not PRETEND to not have an interest...

Lets see, David Hall Numismatics comes to mind for a reason

 

My experience in "making a market" is that it means hyping the value of something in order to drive up the price. I'm not sure exactly what the doublespeak in the press release means, but if David Lawrence is planning to sell the PCI slabs, then there is an inherent conflict of interest and an incentive to overgrade.

 

I'm suprised it took so long.
I've seen it coming all day.

 

Like all TPGs, yet another cash cow. Irregardless of the practices of any other third party grader, money for nothing is exactly that. Yet, another reason I do not accept the practices of the varied third party graders.

Wholesale flips bought in true bulk run approximately $0.008. That means that sending them a 2007 mint set in the OGP is gonna cost you an additional $28? When they are already raking in $280 in the submission itself? The cost of the flips themselves is less than $0.25, and the coins would take only 15 minutes to transfer from the packaging. And the minimum charge per invoice is $10!! That puts the hourly charge for transferring single coins from OGP to flip at $300/hour, or roughly the same price as the grading itself!

Basically, what you are really paying for is simply authenticity on a large variety of the coins you send in...since they are automatically exempt from any "grading guarantees"...that is until they end up with the wrong person ****ed off who bought the slabbed coin third/fourth/fifth party under the understanding that the grade was representative of the coin, and losses BIG! A person with too much time to spend with FTC officials and AGs is a dangerous thing to have breathing down your neck.

Even NGC does not offer a "grading guarantee", if I remember correctly, yet, this simply shows again, that third party graders are really only good for authenticity...the grade is simply the sugar pill to make you feel good about the whole deal.

It's a good thing to know that they are keeping their eyes out for unauthentic and artificially toned and dipped coins! It's always nice to have a good guy on your side keeping the market free and clear of undesirables...or are they?

Ah, yeah...looking out for the big "ME"! Heaven forbid that you should buy a coin and send it in to make sure the whole thing was kosher to begin with. Better keep those receipts and eBay/PayPal printouts for a VERY LONG TIME! Because you should have known better and should have authenticated and verified the genuineness of your purchase before sending it in to be *professionally* authenticated and the genuineness verified! Keep a good detailed tracking of every coin you have ever bought and submitted to this company, because one day, they may just decide to drag you into court to pay for their own incompetency. Can anybody say E&O? There's errors and omissions insurance for a reason.

Most assuredly, they have a right not to deal in counterfeit coins. They should not have to refund any portion of your submission costs either if a coin has been found to be counterfeit. However, if, in their own incompetency, they cannot agree as to a grade, or as to the authenticity, because they cannot at that point even "prove" legally authenticity, then they should not have any right to any portion of your submission costs because they have not performed the PRE-PAID for services.

Just because you submit a coin to a company does not give them a right to profit nor even to absolve themselves when they cannot make a decision. There are ramifications both if they claim a legitimate coin as being counterfeit, just as much as a counterfeit coin being legitimate.

This is what the third party graders are in business for! And this is primarily what I have against third party graders. Not only do they expect you to already have authenticated your coin, but to bear the costs when even they are not able to agree upon the authenticity. Authentication is the only true objective service that they offer. Everything else is paying for consulting services. I can see having to pay for a coin that was submitted and turned out to be counterfeit. That's the objective service you were paying for. I can see having to pay for a coin that had been doctored, that's the service you are paying for. I cannot for the life of me seeing having to pay for a coin submitted that they are UNABLE to make the objective determination that you paid for. They did not provide the service!

I cannot off the top of my head think of any other industry where it is acceptable to pay for a service that is never rendered. Body bags? No problem...so far as the authenticator was correct. Counterfeit? No problem...just get the proper documentation and drag the seller of the coin into court. Can't seem to agree, or even outright incompetence...THERE is a problem. No service, no pay! Threatening your clients with legal action for problem coins when they are paying you to make the objective determination if the coin has problems or not...BIG problem!

If you pay a consultant in any other industry, especially real estate and stocks, non-disclosure that later has negative reprocussions are absorbed by the consultant. In some cases, the client would be the one coming after the consultant legally! And the numismatic industry has been having these real estate and stock investors trickling into coins over the past few years and these investors are used to that form of shark feeding. How big of a hole are the TPGs really digging for themselves?

Finally, I have a REALLY BIG problem with the following:

Kind of nice to know that YOU are paying for the company to profit even more by no longer needing to pay royalties to use someone's coin or photos in their books, publications, and advertising. Why, they are going to make even MORE MONEY by reselling YOUR coin's image to others for a royalty or fee.

Cash cow...money for nothing...if eBay sellers are able to rip off the coin community, why not us? I hold, TPGs are good for VERY LITTLE in the numismatic community. What they provide cannot even come close to comparing with what a good dose of knowledge, education, and research can do.

Oh, and before I finally shut up and get out of here, their "photo authenticity" is "free" for coins valued over $100...think about it...you are STILL paying for the service by paying for the higher tier. With all the fuss about truth in selling with eBay sellers, it would be nice to have more transparent truth in services from our own backyard vendors. Free is free...hiding the charges in "tiers" is nothing less than advertising a wheat roll with a V.D.B. showing.

That's not to say they are "good for nothing" though. Sometimes you can find a real good "deal" because of the widespread TPG propaganda and unknowledgeable sellers and buyers. But is it really worth having "clowns to the right of me, jokers to the left"?

 

Actually, they are a TPG. They accept coins from non-affiliated third parties for authentication and grading. They would also be an FPG (like any other dealer), that is, a First Party Grader, if they submit any of the DLRC inventory to be slabbed into DCG slabs. If they do this, then they are not only a TPG and an FPG, but also a "self-slabber".

Being a "self-slabber" has nothing to do with reputation or accuracy. That would fall more to the label of "bottom-feeder", I believe. No, "self-slabber" is any dealer that slabs his own coins and reintroduces them into the market.

The biggest problem IS the conflict of interest. I have stated before that there is nothing wrong with "self-slabbers" so long as the fact is known that the self-slabbing seller is the one who has not only graded the coin, but also provided the coin itself. This is a dealer! It doesn't matter if the coins is "slabbed" in a flip, cardboard, air-tite, snap-lock 3x2...nor whether it is labeled with ink, pencil, or a professional laser or inkjet printer, the self-slabber is still only a dealer peddling his/her wares.

I personally see a big problem (my biggest peeve with PCGS, maybe?) with a dealer offering his "services" while at the same time directly competing in the exact same market and claiming no conflict of interest exists. It is this conflict in and of itself that I have a problem with. I cannot believe that there will be true non-discriminatory subjectivity in grading when such a conflict of interest exists, irregardless of any supposed procedural guarantees involved.

I will agree though, that by not pretending that a conflict of interest does not exist does lend a bit more credibility to the DCG/DLRC relationship much more than the DHRC/PCGS one does.

 

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT for

I think there is something inherently wrong with self-slabbing. Knowledgeable buyers can simply ignore self-slabbed coins, but it can take advantage of less educated buyers. It's obvious that self-slabbed coins are overgraded to the point that the grading and any certification is meaningless. Self-slabbers also frequently introduce meaningless designations (like "brilliant uncirculated" or "full strike").

It would be a bit like having school children give themselves grades. If you were a college, you could flatly reject a student from a school with that practice, but you wouldn't really argue that it was "OK" to do it.

 

May I ask what you meant with the PCGS comment? I've read their website jargon and they say they don't deal in coins but then, who does and offers their services and what services do they offer?

Ribbit

 

Go to the PCGS Website and scroll to the bottom of the page where the "PCGS Board of Experts" are. Just in their little "top 4" they display you have two current dealers: David Hall and Ron Guth. PCGS is only one company owned by Collector's Universe, who also own other sites such as Certified Coin Exchange and Collector's Corner.

At one point in time, Collector's Universe also owned Bowers and Morena, if I remember correctly, but I'm not sure if they still do.

There are too many other conflicting interests that PCGS is affiliated with for me.

 

SO FAR, the self slabbers have been bottom feeders, but I think DLRC will rise above that, as they have integrity and a reputation for being straight shooters.....

I would like to see an alternative make it, but to tell you the truth, the whole this is just a bit cheesy still....to start a "TPG" then create a market for THOSE slabs, wow, David Lawrance, what are ya thinkin? Get out of the coin biz if your in the TPG biz.....I cannot see both.

 

The practice of "self-slabbing" is the practice of taking "personal" inventory, assigning a grade and claiming authenticity of the coin, and presenting the coin in a "slab-like" holder, sealed and, in some way no matter how minimal, tamper-proofed.

I see nothing inherently wrong about this practice. If that is the case, then the only difference (and thus the "inherently wrong" portion of self-slabbing), is the fact that the coin is provided by directly by the "grader" with a self-slabber, but provided by a third party with TPGs. You then go on to say that the "coins are overgraded to the point that the grading and any certification is meaningless" indicating that the grade and/or grading standard is a difference.

There are many TPGs out there that grossly over-grade. There have been historically, and there will continue to be some now and in the future. A self-slabber is not a TPG and a TPG is not a self-slabber. The difference does not come about by grade differences, but by the source of the coin. By definition, a TPG grades coins from third parties, whether they are graded in accordance with what you agree with or vastly over-grade, they are still a TPG.

A self-slabber, on the other hand, grades his OWN coins. A self-slabber can ACT like a TPG by accepting third party submissions, but the fact that they slab their own, personally owned coins, makes them a self-slabber.

I do not see how there is anything inherently wrong in selling your own coin as a grade that you determine. This is absolutely no different from what a brick and mortar dealer does in his establishment when he writes a grade on the cardboard holders. There is nothing inherently wrong with a dealer doing that. If you do not agree with what he assigns for a grade for the coin, then haggle him down, or simply do not purchase.

What is inherently wrong is when people invest in something without having knowledge of what they are actually doing. Knowledge is the most important possession in this industry. And it should be shared, nourished in the individual, and encouraged in the community.

Too many things are given tags and encompassed into stereo-types, and hyped with propaganda to sway opinion. Yet, the blind eye always seems to be turned by so many when the very thing we cry out against is what is billboarded in our own backyard.

Over-grading? Meaningless designations? I see the TPGs and I see it more. Yet, less blatantly. A dead body buried in the back yard makes it no less a crime than a dead body in the middle of the street where everyone can see.

 

I may be mistaken (or maybe we are talking about two separate people) but I thougth David Lawrence Feigenbaum (the founder of David Lawrence Rare Coins) died a few years ago.