So...I'm looking around the net for Liberty nickels and find myself on the PCGS site (Collector's Corner). I'm looking at comparable coins graded between NGC and PCGS and see HUGE price differences. I view the coins and my uneducated eye can't see a big enough difference to account for the price differences. Are PCGS coins THAT much better in each grade than NGC? ...or is this just an impression PCGS is trying to create? NGC: 1889 MS66 $1300 PCGS: 1889 MS66 $4950 NGC: 1891 MS65 $895 PCGS: 1891 MS65 $1000 NGC: 1891 MS66 $1895 PCGS: 1891 MS66 $2650 NGC: 1903 MS64 $250 PCGS: 1903 MS64 $290 NGC: 1903 MS65 $450 PCGS: 1903 MS65 $585 NGC: 1908 MS65 $800 PCGS: 1908 MS65 $1025 NGC: 1911 MS65 $500 PCGS: 1911 MS65 $595 NGC: 1912 MS65 $460 PCGS: 1912 MS65 $510 NGC: 1912d MS66 $3750 PCGS: 1912d MS66 $6900 NGC: 1885 PF67 $3219 PCGS: 1885 PF67 $5000 NGC: 1903 PF64 $315 PCGS: 1903 PF64 $400 NGC: 1909 PF67 $1850 PCGS: 1909 PF67 $3600
I cant answer your question but man, that is a big difference. If thats how it is, then it does matter the slab in some respects.
yakpoo - did you notice these on the same site ? 1883 No Cents MS66 PCGS - $604 NGC - $725 1883 No Cents MS65 PCGS - $289 PCGS - $370 1889 MS65 PCGS - $775 NGC - $775 1893 MS66 PCGS - $4375 PCGS - $8000 1899 MS64 PCGS - $300 PCGS - $200 1902 MS66 PCGS - $1300 PCGS - $2200 My point is that you can use numbers to indicate pretty much anything you want them to indicate. In other words - in reality they don't really indicate anything. Except - that each coin is an individual and unique item. It's not so much the slab as it is the coin that causes the disaprity in prices.
I think it really depends on the series. PCGS will generally bring more money but there are many nice coins in NGC holders. One factor is the PCGS registry doesn't accept NGC coins and so PCGS registry collectors tend to avoid NGC coins. Don't count on being able to cross an NGC coin over to PCGS, no matter how solid for the grade it appears. My experience is that PCGS is very tough on crossovers.
Sure, I looked at all of them...the PCGS-PCGS prices were (overall) much closer than the PCGS-NGC prices. I agree...I thought the difference was with the coin. This price bias would indicate that NGC grade their coins much "looser" than PCGS. I tried ignoring the slabs and judging on my own, but (as I said) couldn't see the justification for the difference in price. If you look at all the coins, the bias toward PCGS seems quite obvious...not some "number manipulation" on my part as you suggest. Perhaps, folks (investors) feel the PCGS label denotes greater "prestige" and hold their value better over time...commanding a higher price...I don't know. That's the reason for the question...why?
Well said, Doug. Individual coins can sell for much more or less based upon their merit, regardless of TPG. Yes, many folks "buy the coin, not the holder". Another major factor to watch when comparing prices - are the coins the same variety ? Often, a list will mix varieties, truly comparing apples and oranges. Another biggie - coin prices can swing quite a bit based on when they sold. Be sure to check dates of sale.
Another major factor - beware making a judgement call based on so few data points. That's a really small sample size, especially with a "noisy signal" like coin prices.
I read over and over again on this forum--"Buy the coin, not the slab." I also read that PCGS and NGC were the top two third party graders. Then I read PCGS is more respected than NGC. This thread is telling us that the slab and who slabbed it has a lot to do with the value of the coin.
It's also saying "be very careful with generalities", such as "PCGS > NGC". If one looks at large numbers of coins, the price difference 'twixt the two is small compared to the variability due to other factors, which explains why an NGC coin might sell for more then "the same" PCGS coin. Consider the statement quoted above; it seems more accurate if we change "has a lot to do with" to "has some impact on".
I started out thinking PCGS was better because of the marketing aspect and hype. I realized that they just weren't into what I collect(toned copper)after having many coins bodybagged, so its hard to be into them. My only guess is they don't want to risk their reputation on a lowly set like 100-1000.00 Indians or Lincolns. NGC has been very responsive to my submissions and customer service is great! I don't pass on really great coins anymore regardless service. I'll beat the NGC drum all day when it comes to copper. Not that I don't own PCGS slabbed BN coins, they just don't happen very often. When I compare NGC to PCGS side by side there isn't any difference to the grading standards that I can see. I give the Registry issue credence for bringing the higher prices but when I see a registry set with all PCGS coins I know that person missed out on some real beauties. Thanks for leaving them out there for me to buy.
The point you and Doug make (difference within the grade) is what I originally thought...(that's the point I "think" you're making). It's tough to judge from pictures, but I did the best I could. I just couldn't see much difference. I wasn't trying to make a particular point which is why I put the link to Collector's Corner in the original post. I hoped others might look at the coins from a neutral viewpoint and share their thoughts. Given a random distribution of "grades within a grade" and varieties...the price bias doesn't seem to make sense. I was only looking at Liberty nickels, though. I didn't check to see if this trend appears in other series...I'll check. The fact that PCGS only allows PCGS coins in their registry sets could certainly account for the difference in prices...especially on the PCGS site! :thumb:
I went though some other series I know a little about. The Franklin half series is the only one so far that has a reasonable amount of both PCGS/NGC coins in comparable grades. I see no bias in the Franklin half series. So far, it seems like the "apparent" PCGS price bias is unique to the Liberty nickel series.
yakpoo I wasn't suggesting that you were manipulatiing anything - merely that numbers like those you were showing are usually quite misleading. That's why I showed some numbers that indicated that the name on the plastic has little to do with the price. We've had the discussion on here a hundred times about why there is a price variation between NGC & PCGS in coins of the same grade. And every time we do the very same answers come up. You'll hear it's because PCGS has tougher grading standards, or that NGC has easier grading standards - however you want to word it. But the fact of matter is, on some coins NGC is tougher and on others PCGS is tougher. And on some - they are equal. Then on the special designations, NGC is tougher in every case. So that isn't the reason. Then you'll hear about the marketing and hype aspect. This is true, PCGS long had a better marketing campaign. Their fans, and the company itself, hyped PCGS up to the end of the earth ! So that is part of the reason. Then you'll hear about the registry programs and PCGS not accepting NGC slabbed coins for entry - and this is true. So that is part of the reason. What you will very, very seldom hear is that until 2002 NGC would not even grade any coins dated after 1964. So for almost 20 years, the first 20 years that the TPGs even existed and thus arguably the most important ones, many collectors and dealers would not even deal with NGC because they could not get all of their coins graded by them. This cost NGC huge amounts of business and greatly impacted their reputation in the marketplace. Then you will seldom hear about how for 10-15 years PCGS was the offical grading company of the ANA. That also boosted their reputation immensely. Until NGC outbid them for the contract that is, and it became known that to become the official ANA grading company all you had to do was pay the most money. But of course, by the time this happened PCGS already had the lead and the edge in the market. Because they were the first. Then you will hear that PCGS always graded more coins than NGC. And for years this was true. But it was because NGC would not grade moderns for the first 20 years they existed. So PCGS had a huge lead on them in the number of coins graded. This also boostd PCGS's reputation in the marketplace. But once NGC changed their policy, in less than 3 years they not only caught up to PCGS, but they surpassed them by far in the number of coins graded. So what you see here are the reasons that PCGS coins often sell for more than the same coins graded by NGC. It is a matter of perception. PCGS always got there first and that gave them the edge in people's minds. In the mind of the marketplace. And that was all that really mattered. Of course over the past 10 years that difference in price has dwindled away to almost nothing. NGC gains in price parity every year. But you don't hear much about that because the PCGS fans choose to ignore it and most NGC fans don't even know it. But those that pay attention to the truth instead of the hype know it, and always have known it. So anyway, those are the reasons why coins slabbed by PCGS sell for more than coins slabbed by NGC. The real reasons. It's not because PCGS is the better grading company or tougher - it's because of a lot of hot air and people's misplaced perceptions. Of course that's a hard thing to overcome once it's in place. But being overcome it is
