PCGS Statement on Counterfeit holders

Link

COUNTERFEIT PCGS HOLDERS

- March 27, 2008


In recent days, counterfeit coins in counterfeit PCGS slabs have begun to appear on eBay, the online auction site. All of the counterfeit coins/holders seen so far are coming out of China. Alert members of the PCGS Message Boards were the first to notify PCGS of the counterfeit coins/holders.

The coins themselves range from poor-quality counterfeits to well-made fakes. The counterfeit PCGS holders are well-executed, but with minor differences from a genuine holder. PCGS anticipates that authentic coins will eventually be placed into counterfeit PCGS holders in the future, perhaps with elevated grades and/or inappropriate designators (Full Bell Lines, Prooflike, etc.), although none have been seen to date.

The on-line PCGS Certificate Verification is a method for confirming that a particular certificate number matches the information in the PCGS database, but the counterfeiters are aware of this detection method and are now using valid certificate numbers (see below).

PCGS has contacted U.S. governmental agencies, including the FBI, U.S. Customs, the Secret Service, and US Postal authorities, to enlist their assistance in pursuing enforcement or legal remedies against these counterfeiters. Also, PCGS is a member of eBay's CCW Group, which monitors eBay for fraudulent listings and asks eBay to discontinue auctions of suspicious coins and/or suspend violators.

PCGS has called for eBay to stop accepting listings of any rare coins from Chinese sellers. Ebay recently pulled several auctions of counterfeit coins/holders at the urging of PCGS.

PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit.

The PCGS Guarantees of Grade and Authenticity do not apply to counterfeit holders, but PCGS has a strong interest in assisting consumers in actions against any fraudulent sellers.

Sufficient differences exist between genuine and counterfeit holders such that PCGS experts can easily identify fake holders. Consumers are cautioned that coins that appear to be underpriced may be counterfeit. PCGS urges all consumers to deal only with reputable sellers who are willing to stand behind the coins they sell.

PCGS recommends consumers consider the following any time they make a coin purchase:

1. Verify the certificate number using the PCGS Cert Verification program at http://www.pcgs.com/cert/
See limitations above
2. Avoid purchasing rare coins from eBay sellers in China.
3. Investigate the legitimacy of the seller (examine feedback; avoid low feedback sellers; find out how long the seller has been in business; do they have a good reputation?; do you have legal recourse in case of a problem?).
4. Make sure you have a money-back guarantee that is enforceable (for example, credit card companies will often assist in cases of fraud).
5. Realize that "bargains" in numismatics are usually too good to be true.
6. If you have a question about a particular coin, be sure to have it checked out by an Authorized PCGS Dealer or by PCGS before the expiration of any guarantees.
7. Request an immediate refund if the coin you purchased turns out to be a counterfeit.

The following list of coins and certificate numbers have been seen in fake PCGS holders:

China (1916) Silver Dollar, Y-332, Cert #10712316 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-677, Cert #11354470 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, K-678, Cert #11285683 (valid)
China (1923) Silver Dollar, Y-336.1, Cert #13835186 (valid)
China Republic (1912) 20 Cents, Cert #21981173 (invalid)
China (1916) Gold Dollar, Pn-44, Cert # 11072163 (invalid)
China (1923) Gold Dollar, Tsao Kun, K-677, Cert #11354470 (invalid spec, valid cert…used above)
US 1858-O Half Dollar, Cert #03884338 (valid)
US 1800 Silver Dollar, Cert #03859118 (valid)
US 1795 Silver Dollar, Off-Center Bust, Cert #22030856 (valid)
Mexico 1761-MoMM 8 Reales, Cert #05763936 (valid)

"Valid" means that the correct information shows up under Cert Verification

To alert PCGS to any offerings of counterfeit PCGS holders, please notify Ron Guth at guthr@collectors.com. For more information, contact PCGS Customer Service at 800-447-8848.

 

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A great idea, but unfortunately one which would pinch EBay's pocketbook too hard for them to consider it.

 

I feel a big hit for the hobby
trust me, it's gonna happen

 

E-Bay cannot stop accepting rare coin auctions from Chinese sellers.

They would be up to their eyeballs in lawsuits in seconds - and that would not be from Chinese lawyers, but good 'ole American lawyers who smell a super easy case to win.

 

I thought eBay had something called VeRO or something similar? Surely PCGS can get auctions pulled because hey, copyright infringement of both the holder and the label?

 

This will serve to undermine confidence in online selling. Especially if the labels get better and you have more of a proliferation of unauthentic coins in slabs with authentications that match the real ones at the TPGs. What a pain. They'll have to come up with something else besides just the certificate numbers to fix this.

Removing the auctions from ebay, even if they could keep a strict watch on it, would still not be 100% effective and won't likely stop the practice from getting more advanced.

 

All things are bound to change sooner or later and those who can't adapt, well you know the rest... :vanish: We may be witnessing the beginning of the end for TPGs as we know them. One might even philosophically reason that the collectors who don't 'slab' will see this as a great equalizer, you know those who prefer genuine raw coins.

However, I also see a surge in digital pocket scales and the little weights which calibrate them.

Take Care
Ben

 

If counterfeit raw coins didn't sink the hobby, why would counterfeit slabbed coins ?

Scams are far worse in the raw coin market. Most will understand that, and continue to see TPGs as a force of legitimacy in this marketplace.

There is no way TPGs are going away.

That said, I'm sure we agree that this counterfeit coin / slab thing is a bad deal.

Is the Chinese government doing anything ?

 

Counterfeiting is a huge part of China's economy. They have no incentive to curtail counterfeiting. Even if China could stop the production of counterfeit coins there would still be the following counterfeits pouring out of China:

computer hardware (including chips and processors) and software
drugs (see heparin and 19 deaths in the US)
cigarettes
music CDs
chemicals
agricultural products such as fertilizers, pesticides and seeds
luxury goods - Louis Vuitton and Gucci handbags, Tiffany jewelry, designer clothing
name-brand sporting goods knockoffs - Nike shoes
toys and video games
NutraSweet
laundry detergent
automotive parts
car tires
aircraft parts
batteries
construction tools
electrical appliances
beer
sunglasses

You name it and China more than likely counterfeits it.

 

chinese beer?

 

Yep. They rebottled their cheap rot gut as Budweiser.

 

They can probably fool me with counterfeit coins- I don't think they're gonna have much luck with fake Budweiser- I'm an expert.

Andy

 

US Presidents?

 

they don't need to counterfiet them. they can buy the real thing!

 

the numismatic community as a whole should try and boycott selling coins to chinese buyers. they need the real coins to make good fakes. obviously there are already US coins over there but in order to copy the latest slab designs the have to get them from the US. in theory this could at least make it harder for them to counterfeit our coins.

or we could all pitch in for a couple cruise missiles and shoot them at the counterfeit factories

 

You can add CAT bulldozers to that list.

 

"PCGS urges consumers not to purchase rare coins from Chinese sellers on eBay. While legitimate, authentic coins exist in China, the plethora of fakes and fraudulent listings on eBay increase the likelihood that coins purchased from Chinese sellers will be counterfeit."

This has pretty much been my standard operating procedure since I got back into the hobby anyway.

 

Forget avoiding the Chinese sellers. That's the easy part. What is going to be the problem are the people who "will" buy from these Chinese sellers and then turn around and start reselling. That will be much more difficult to avoid.

 

As nice as that sounds I am now sure the FBI is reading these threads, ok everyone gave a big smile and wave

As far as avoiding chinese sellers, the best way to do that is educating new collectors, and old alike. This topic should be in every coin related guide, magazine, and show that is had in the U.S. Problem is hardly anyone does. Offense is the best defense, so educate all you know and that will have an impact. The problem, sad as it is, will never go away fully, but maybe we can have some what of an effect on it.

Regards,
S

 

Not that I'm in favor of war with China, but I don't think that the FBI cares at all what we have to say. Anybody who has ever dealt with internet fraud will tell you, the local PD's, FBI, and Secret Service are completely disinterested in crime on the internet in general (child porn being the one exception). One can post raging hatred and threats against China all day with no consequence.