PCGS body bagged them. NGC said nice coins??

SO heres what happen. I Sent some coins out to PCGS for grading. Out of the 20 I sent I got 17 back in slabs and 3 BODY BAGS. I was blown away. The reasons they badybagged those was they claimed that 2 where cleaned and 1 had damage/tooling. NONE HAD BEEN CLEANED and i was not aware of any damage or tooling of these coins that sat in my collection for close to 10 years. So sent them to NGC. Guess what? I just got the coins back from NGC all of them back in slabs with MS61s and up grades. lol I had thought that PCGS was over rated. But this time I know it. This was not my first time dealing with them. Or getting the same results. This was part of a personal experiment. Has any one else had this happe to them?

 

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Not surprising. You dropped some serious change and now know the same thing you did beforehand. And have the same thing you did beforehand...

 

Bone has this happend to you?

 

No sir it never has, I don't advocate TGPs of any kind. Just a pure collector here. All my coins are graded using RedBook standards. It's good enough for me...

Ben

 

I don't know what that proves---many coins could have been cleaned over 10 years ago---in fact if someone gets good at dipping a coin they can dip it and an expert not even know it...what kind of coin was it??...

Speedy

 

I don't know how they figure out a gold coin is cleaned that dosnt appear to have ever been cleaned. There are no scrubbing marks of any kind. No strange color no trace of anything strange at all. In anycase NGC thought nothing of it, they gave them MS 61 and 63 grades. Im sure those 2 where cleaned at some point in history. It used to be a common practice a long time ago, I find out. But the coin that didnt make any sense is the one that was bagged for damage or tooling. It was graded by NGC MS63. Im trying to find out why the 2 top grading companies would look at the same coins and get to very different judgments of grade?

Also I want to restate that the ones that where stated cleaned by PCGS had no OBVIOUS trace's. Anyone know how to find out if a GOLD COIN has been cleaned other then the OBVIOUS like whizzing marks or a polished shimmer? SO AYONE THINKING ABOUT SENDING THERE COINS TO A TPGC will know?
Another fact, that these coins not only sat in my collection for about 10 years, they sat in the guy I got them from for about twice that and, He was the one that tought me to NEVER clean a coin back when i was a youngster. lol He was a man I trusted very much. He is no longer alive ( RIP SAM ).

Like i said this im trying to find out, how to know? Also to say that TPG services are all just opionion's. As well im really just lookig to hear about other peoples experances?

 

Speedy good point. I should have said, that none have been cleaned by me. but i dont beleive they had been cleaned by who I got them from. By my math,the only time they could have been cleaned would have been perhaps over year ago.

 

Professional coin grading is in it's infancy and sorting thru the shysters and scam artists sadly is part determining which service to use if you've never used one and have a handful of (Grandpa's) nice coins you want to sell for Top-Dollar. Face it the hobby draws an unsavory crowd. They'll hang on the edge preying on the unsuspecting. Walking the fine line of legal and illegal activity and giving the hobby a bad name from those they preyed upon...

But back to the quote, you'd think an INDEPENDENT STANDARD would be adhered to, there's one used sucessfully in the Wine & Spirits Industry and subjectivity there is even more varied...

Ben

 

Ben.. I hear ya.

 

to me it proves they dont know much of what they do and eople have bought into a subjective standard and now cling to it like its the word of jesus...if its cleaned so well that professionals cant tell they have been cleaned...am I missing the problem? People are so irrationaly afraid of cleaned coins, even when they can't tell a coin was cleaned they worry it has been cleaned and they just cant tell...very funny.

I agree with bonedigger nathanscoins...you wasted your money sending coins to people to do something you could have done yourself, to judge your coin and they probably dont know any more than any long time collector.

 

:hatch: EGGzactly!

They are the opinions of (supposed) experts, and people rely upon them either because they are too lazy to bother learning the standards underlying the Sheldon grading system, and/or they lack confidence in either their own abilities to do so, or their ability to convince a prospective buyer of their coins that their opinion is to be respected.

As a general rule I don't use TPGs myself, but from all the postings I have read here and in other forums over the years it is obvious to me that graders at the top tier companies generally agree to within a point or so on the vast majority of coins, even though in specific instances such as Nathan's, their consistency leaves something to be desired.

 

I tend to agree with this, but not to the point of calling it illegal. It's just something everyone has to realize and be mentally prepared to deal with. Whenever there is a lot of buying and selling taking place, it is basically a competitive activity where each side works to obtain the best deal possible. If one side is trying to assemble a collection out of love for the coins, but the other side is trying to make money, guess who's likely to "win?"

I've said before that I think bodybagging is a scam by the TPGs to increase profits. When someone pays to have a coin slabbed and graded, it should be slabbed and graded even if the grade is "MS61-Cleaned." I don't think there is a precident for this behavior in any other business - to charge for a service not performed and have the customers willingly accept this treatment year after year and continue to send in repeat business.

The whole cleaning thing gives me brain-cramps too. I frequently see cleaned Morgan and Peace dollars honestly labelled "cleaned" by some honest dealers and selling for a discount to other coins in the same condition, but I can't/won't buy them because of the stigma even though I like the coins. I'm not entirely sure why cleaning isn't considered another form of wear, so that a cleaned MS61 is really just considered AU.

 

It doesn't need to have marks or hairlines to be cleaned---sometimes it just is just the look of a coin---or some dirt in a letter--etc that points to it being a cleaned coins---some TPG's are harder on cleaning than others---IMHO ANACS is about the hardest--
If they aren't 100% sure that it hasn't been cleaned then they will BB---and for a good reason IMHO---if they felt that it was cleaned and then sent it back to you slabbed and then it was found out that it was cleaned then they would have to buy the coin back from you and they don't want to do that.

Well it has been said that 90% of all Silver Dollars have been cleaned at one point in time---

Speedy

 

OK EVERYONE, NOW THAT I HAVE YOUR ATTENTION! I NEED TO ADMIT SOMETHING, The coins I was talking about in this post, Its actually something that happened to me about a year ago. I have been waiting to put together my own personal investigation / experiment. While tossing a few hundred bucks around for it. BUT PERSONALLY MY COIN COLLECTION IS WORTH MUCH MUCH MORE THEN THAT. THE FACTS ABOUT THE COINS THAT I SPOKE OF AT FIRST ARE FACT. Its something I have been holding in for a while and thought maybe I should ask before I light the fire. I HAVE SENT THE SAME COIN TO PCGS MORE THEN ONCE AND GOTTEN THEM BACK IN LOWER AND HIGHER grades. I have also sent them a coins a while back that. I MYSELF DIPPED! It was slabed it was graded. Im not a dealer.

I HAVE USED these TPGS!


NOW SOME MORE FACTS. That I frankly couldn't believe until I saw it for my own eyes. Over the past few months. I have been going between NNC, NTC, NTI, NGC, ANACS, PCGS, SEGS, IGC, PCI and A no name TPG that is REALLY IS NOT WORTH THE MENTION. But i can say should be OUT OF THE TPG INDUSTRY. AGAIN THIS TO ME WAS WORTH THE MONEY. Im not going to bad mouth anyone. BUT THESE ARE THE FACTS AND RESULT OF MY PERSONAL TESTS.


I TOOK SOME 10 PCGS SLABED COINS ( Morgan's ). CRACKED THEM OPEN! Recorded the grade and INFO. Then sent them to NTC. 8 of 10 where graded the same by NTC then by PCGS. 1 higher and 1 lower. GO figure. I also sent some coins that where in NTC slabs to PCGS and haven't gotten those back yet. But I will see what becomes of this. Because I see today that the where shipped. I know NTC dosnt get a high revue but after a few years of watching there slabs I couldn't figure out why they got the shaft? I do know that I saw a few I thought where over grade but the same goes with PCGS. I ACTUALLY have to say that ANACS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE BEST FOR ME. ( but I can get into that later).



Im sorry to say this but for years I bought into the big 4 and im since either a few of the other companies have finally started to get things right or the big 4 are slipping up. Or playing it for every penny they can. ( With understanding of what you do and do not want in your companies slabs.)


Again Im not trying to start any fights here. I have been working on this for a few months now and have found that some of these TPG's are not any better then a few less well respected TPG. IF YOU ASK ME ITS A DOG EAT DOG WORLD BETWEEN THEM, AND IM SEEING THAT PCGS IS PLAYING THE ROLE OF TOP DOG! DOGS SNIFF EACH OTHER. As well they crap all over the yard. One more thing you need to know about dogs if you don't have one. THERE TERRITORIAL and some have Wolf genes.


I have to finsh this later. My son has Cerebral Pasly and needs my attention.

Again ill add. Im home all day with my son. this is how i got the time to do this. I get very board during the day,

 

Howdy
Yep--I agree---some of the other grading companies are pretty good---now the fact is still there that they aren't as consistent <sp?> in getting the grades right but even a blind squirrel can find a nut every-now-and-then!
I always suggest to collectors that they stop and take a look at other grading companies because as long as they know how to grade there are some good coins out there---now if they don't know how to grade I would never suggest it...
I myself have gotten some good deals in PCI slabs....

Speedy

 

NathansCoin, nice post. Independent collectors, like yourself, conducting experiments is the best way to check out these companies. If more of these types of experiments are done and the information gets out there, I think it will help the hobby in the long run. Thanks.

 

thank you.

 

Nathan,
I'd be willing to bet money that the coins that came back with problems listed, had the problems listed. NGC may simply have felt they were market acceptable, whereas PCGS most likely did not.

 

Hey Nathanscoins---post photos if you can of the one that they said has tooling....I would love to see what they thought it might have...

Speedy

 

Nathan,

Why not post the data of your experiment? I would think more than a couple of people around here (myself included) would be interested in seeing the actual results from one to the other.

I find it surprising that a few of the companies you listed would be within one point of some of the other companies you listed, but I think it also would depend on what coins were submitted and what grade they were. A 63 morgan is going to be a more stable result than say a 58 bust half, etc.

I read through your posts, and I agree with some of your points and disagree with others.

Personally, I don't much care about TPGs one way or the other. I recently submitted my first submission to PCGS, and I'm waiting for my results. I did it for a number of reasons specific to the coins I sent, but for the most part, I agree with some of the opinions already voiced in this thread.