Now that some time has passed...POLL question!!

What do you think about the 2004-D Wisconsin state quarters with the low and high leaf varieties (shouldn't they have called it a stalk)? Values for these coins are going up and it makes you wonder...am I missing the boat by not jumping on the band wagon, or is the band wagon ready to crash?

 

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Actually I would say they have come WAY down prices as I see a dealer offering the whole set of 3 for $395 now. That is quite a bit less than the $2000 a month ago? I would say if you are an error collector and it would serve you and your collection justice, well go for it! It really doesn't matter what any one else thinks as long as you are content with what you are putting your money in to. I bought one of the speared buffalo's at a very good price and have not seen one sell any where near what I paid for mine. Most are still going in the $100 to $130 range and I got mine for $75. Guess time will tell but until then I can say I have one in my collection. I actually do not collect errors but do have a few around here but had to have anything with a buffalo on it!

 

Shifting in the wind

You know, just speaking theoretically, stepping back a bit, and wondering out loud, someone who questions everything might ask himself if these major news stories about microscopic differences are not an indication of intellectual bankruptcy.

Wouldn't you rather invest your psychic energy in the Chinese Warring States or the coins of ancient Rhodes or the Crusader States? I mean, for all the ranting and raving, you could just as easily spend some time with a few books and for the same price as a microscopic possibility, you could own a banknote printed by Paul Revere.

 

I'm curious what microscopic difference is being referred to.

This is a far greater difference than the difference between 1804 dollar and an 1803 dollar.

History is still being made even today and we actually are in on it. While people far in the future may look back and say most of us are too wrapped in everyday concerns they will certainly be able to identify the important statesmen and visionaries of the time. Just because Paul Revere doesn't exist today doesn't mean there are no people equally or even more important to history. Just because we can't identify them with great accuracy because of our closeness to them and the events, and because we lack the hindsight hardly means that history stopped in 1776 or in 1965.

One can think what he will about these coins but nearly two thirds are probably in circulation now and still there aren't vast numbers turning up. With every day that goes by the chances of more appearing decreases. Sure it's risky to buy these for speculation when there are still untold millions in mint and fed storage but then it's always risky to buy any coin for speculation. If you want one for a collection it's possible a window of opportunity is closing as the last of the first batch of these is being cleaned out of circulation. How many people have been waiting to buy these?

Whatever happens to the price is really mostly irrelevant anyway when you consider that these coins have again riveted public attention on coins. Thankfully we seem to be getting better at capitalizing on this attention to recruit a new generation of collectors.

 

Well, Cladking, I appreciate the fact that there are many motivations for collecting. Ultimately, collecting may not be a rational pursuit, no matter how much we rationalize it. So, there is that. Just narrowing this to the historical aspect, there is no way that these modern coins have the patina of history. By definition, they are modern.

You cannot say that when you hold a Wisconsin Quarter, you wonder if it was ever in the pocket of Congressman Jim Sensenbrenner, Jr., of Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin.

Pursuing state quarters is fine. If your interest is in errors and varieties, that, too is fine.

Personally, I look to the big picture and to history. I just think that there is something of a "tulip craze" mentality that drives up the price of a modern artifact whose population is in the millions. On the other hand, a colonial banknote printed by Paul Revere or Benjamin Franklin or signed by someone who signed the Declaration or Constitution is a truly historical object.

Even so, I agree, wanting to own something "historical" may be no more or less rational (if that word applies) than feeling the need to own a Wisconsin Quarter with an extra leaf or stalk.

 

One still must keep in mind that the collectors in the 1800s were collecting and preserving MODERN coins of their time and if it wasn't for them a ton of coin collecting history wouldn't be around today. While I am not a strong collector of modern coins I do it for my children and hopefully their children as who knows what my efforts may bring 100 years from now. I get tickled at new collectors who really get excited about finding an "old" coin from way back in the 50's or 60's! If it was issued in my lifetime I don't think of it as old but our next generation already does. It will take the efforts of many to preserve what a limited few did for us in the 1800's and it will take even larger numbers to supply the masses in the future with our, hopefully more affordable, collectable coins which they will refer to as the "past" and "history"! Hopefully my family will hold on to my coins for a few generations and see what happens! Thats my dream!

 

Whaaat?

 

I suppose we'll just have to disagree on whether or not a modern is historical or not. Or whether anyone important has ever held it or even if that ultimately even matters.

It would seem though that if one is looking for coins which may have been used by famous people which have acquired the "patina of history" then one can find much more of this and at much lower prices among ancients and much older world coins. How about a coin that might have been in Newton's pocket when he came up with the idea of the calculus? Or a golden coin of Alexander the Great which might have actually been used by the king himself? How about an ancient silver piece which might have been paid to Judas for his treachery? Or the copper coins whose images were tranferred to the Shroud of Turin whenever it was made? Now that's patina. Such coins can be found for pennies while millions of modern day American collectors clamor for rare dates of coins which exoist in relative abundance and are willing to pay millions of dollars in some cases.

Perhaps everything has an air of tulip mania to it, but one who pays $10 for a roll of the new buffalo nickel made in the millions is taking far less of a financial chance than the collector who plunks down a few million for an old federal coin just because it's the going rate. Yes, obviously the buffalo nickels probably have less chance of maintaining their value but if people are to ever behave completely rationally which would you rather have your money in?

 

Interesting results...

Personally, I think the high and low leaf varieties were the result of a Denver mint employee(s) fooling around with one of the dies. Of course mint dies used are evidentially destroyed so we will never know how the high and low leaf got there on only 2004-D Wisconsin quarters.


The fact of the matter is if this is the case, you have a true variety. I guess my polling selection of Mint employees(s) and a true variety should be combined as one.

Also, how many varieties can you see with the naked eye? How many die gouges actually look like a corn stalk? Ken Potter might believe this, but I bet he is buying them as inexpensively as possible, but will soon come around and be selling them for top dollar!

I am not a big fan of varieties, especailly those that require 30X power to see, but I am fascinated with this quarter even though I don't collect state quarters. Also, case in point, years ago vending machines that sold cigarettes for 28 cents included 2 cents as "change" with the pack of cigarettes itself. One of those cents was the famous 1955 DDO cent and I am sure at the time, people thought it was "no big deal".

Of course there was no internet and instant "variety" news as we have now. Look at the "speared" Buffalo and "Detached Leg" Buffalo nickels that are making the circles on these threads. If that happened in 1955, it would of took years before anybody paid attention to it.

Here was a variety that could be seen without a loop and it wasn't till years later that collectors actually started to pay attention to these cents. Well, the Wisconsin 2004-D quater has been out for less than a year and Coin Values had on their cover stating the next "$1,000 quarter...the 'Stalk' of the Hobby."

No big deal? I sure we would all love to have the high and low leaf just to say we have one! Then we would being doing the jig like Grandpa Joe when Charlie found the golden ticket!

 

This is true enough, but I think it is the wrong analogy. It should be a comparison between someone who buys a few million $$ worth of Buffalos (at the Mint's prices, for example) vs. the one purchase of a rare coin for the same amount.

In any case, I agree that there is a value to saving some "modern, common" coins. But that is far removed from paying $2000 for a set of quarters with a convenient die gouge.

Anyway, I am only opposed to the hype. I have no proboem with people collecting anything they want. But I do not like huge and fast market bubbles which generate interest only to generate disinterest and resentment when the bubbles burst.

 

Not me. I have no interest in making the Mint employees or their cronies rich.

 

IF...mint employees are responsible for these additional leaves, then they would be risking their job(s) as well as serious penalities. After all, you simply can't walk out of the mint from a day's work with new quarters in your pockets.

 

Do you have a more plausible explanation ?

 

I really think they did it on a dare or a bet to see if anybody would notice.

It would be like putting your initials on a dollar bill to see after you spend it if that bill eventually would make its rounds back to you. They (mint employees) knew that all used dies get destroyed so tracing any modifications back to them would be hard to prove. The mint is investigating this embarassment and whoever did this will surely lose their job...if it can be proved.

I am not familar with mint security, but I have to believe that your pockets must be empty before you take to the floor. Also, with computerized counters and all, every unit is accounted for so the likelyhood of grabbing a handful here or there without getting caught is nill.

Die gouges? I never seen one look exactly like it belonged there in the first place. A conspiracy to get mint employees rich? Doubtful...possible, but very doubtful.

 

one thing 4 sure....It was NO accident! HeHe

 

Which is it ?

By your own statements, somebody is risking their job, which is why I think they did it for profit. I don’t know what mechanism the Mint has in place for monitoring quarters. If all they’re doing is counting them it would be easy to replace them with old quarters. Pockets are checked ? Maybe management is involved. I think Mint management has had a fairly shady past; someone even wrote a book about it.

Look at the numbers. Change the dies, run off 5,000 coins (a pittance compared to the 300 million they’re going to create), keep 3000, let 2000 go into circulation, wait for values to hit $200 per coin, sell 3000 X $200 = $600,000.

All speculation on my part, of course; I have no proof, and I’m making no accusations. I’m merely stating why I have no interest in these coins, as my explanation is the most likely one of any I’ve read.

 

As stated, I can't imagine anybody thinking they can get a job at the mint or U.S. Treasury and simply walking out with a handful/bag of quarters or better yet, a sheet of $100 printed bills. I would bet there are just too many checks and balances to discourage employees from dipping into the coin bin or sheets of printed currency.



If a conspiracy took place, then these employees would be prime suspects. The secret service does not have a sense of humor and most likely has every Denver mint employee on some type of "watch" list. Fines, prison, losing your job, etc., are enough of a deterrent for most people. We shall see what happens as somebody will fess up what really took place.

The fact of the matter remains is that whether it is a conspiracy, "prank" or a perfect looking die gouge (that happens to look just like a corn stalk), these quarters are out there. State quarter collectors have been buying them and as important, the press is all over this.

News travels much faster than in 1955 when the DDO Cent made its way into circulation. PCGS and NGC have been certifying these varieties and I expect the RED BOOK will list them too.

Even if you don't care or collect them...be honest...when you get a 2004-D Wisconsin in your change, do you look for the leaf?...or do you simply throw them into the closest soda machine or toll basket?

 

The three I found so far I melted down.

 

Absolutely correct. Regardless of how they got there, they are a part of the coin collecting universe. And, admittedly, an interesting part. Much more fun than a doubled-date.

I could not care less what the media writes.

I look for them, and if I got one I might sell it to buy something for my collection that I value, although more likely I would give it to my sister who is a more electic collector than I am. My point is that I would not buy one.

 

Think about it - If press reports cause tens of thousands (or more) of non-collectors to want that "variety", what do you think will happen to the price (which isn't necessarily the same as the long term "value" ).

If I decide I want one, I'll just wait a few years until the non-collectors are done, and buy one for 50¢ or so.