NGC Grading Class At CSNS

My junior numismatist, Evan and I attended the grading class put on by NGC at CSNS. It was taught by grader John Schuch II. We really wanted to attend to get a sense of what the people that are going to be looking at our submissions are looking for. John was VERY nice and willing to answer questions... Even if some members of the class just seemed to want free grade opinions... The class was very hands on with John bringing the NGC "grading" set out of the vault. This set consist of coins he has put together to show prime examples of certain kinds of grades... And problems. We would pass the coins around and form our opinions and then John would explain to us what grade he assigned the coin and what grade NGC assigned the coin and why. He offers several of these classes a year. Being a dealer and someone who looks at many coins even I learned some great tricks and tips in the class. I HIGHLY recommend looking into the class.

 

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And how often did HIS grade differ from what NGC ultimately assigned the coin?

 

It was funny. I was always within 1 point if not right on. When I was off it was usually from being conservative with my grade.

I did miss the 1926 S nickel in mint state that was made from 2 halved coins... It was a coin they bought back because they missed it too... Scary stuff.

 

It did occasionally. Usually tho... I'd say 95% of the time he was right on what NGC ultimately called the coin. We got a good feel for the grading room... First base grader, finalizer, and quality control grader. 3 people look at every coin and assign a grade.

On an average day he said he grades 600 or so coins... Some days are less... Such as days where lots of copper is being graded may only be 200-300. He said he holds the record of 6700 grades in one day doing modern after looking at 13,000 coins.

 

I can also confirm that market and net grading do happen in the grading room. It was discussed.

 

My eyes would roll to the back of my head if I had to look at that many coins, especially u.s.

Does he still collect or has this killed his interest in collecting personally?

I worked in a comic book store for years as my first job and after the owners retired I didnt want to see another comic ever. But now I add to my collection every now and then.

 

Good question. He didn't discuss that.

 

Did he provide any anecdotal examples? If so, what were they?

 

Just how 80 S Morgans are graded one way and other dates are graded more conservatively because that is what the market likes... Similar discussions were had about 38 D buffalo nickels.

 

"Great tricks"? I'd hope you'd share them with us.

Sounds like a wonderful experience.

Thanks.

 

Matt, I am sorry but I don't follow the logic with the common dated 1880-S Morgan & the 1938-D Buffalo being graded "one way" and other coins more conservative.
Do you mean that select coins are graded higher than more common coins just because of market or demand ? Doesn't this make the whole sense of grading a sham ?

Dave

 

This is the same class I attended last year at one of the Whitman shows in Baltimore. What struck me was the discussion around the number of coins graded per day. He said (in my class and, evidently, repeated in LD's class) that he averages "600 or so" coins a day. That means (assuming an 8 hour day), he grades 75/hour. It also means he spends less than a minute looking at each coin. I know in the class he gave us about 45 seconds to look at the coin and make our grade assignment.

I can see how you can get into a rhythm and get faster but assigning the difference between an MS 69 and MS 70 (or even an MS64/65) in less than a minute really makes me question the accuracy. If he only misses 1% that means 6 coins per day are given incorrect grades multiplied by the number of active graders working there.

Since I took the class, my purchase of graded coins has dropped way off.

 

It's just reality... These companies are privately owned companies. They are not obligated to follow anyone's grading standards but their own. PCGS and NGC's standards are the most consistent and accurate according to the market. It's not a sham, it's just how they operate.

 

The overall quality of the 1880-S, 1881-S, & 1882-S Morgan Dollars is better than pretty much all the other dates. It actually makes a little sense to hold them to a higher standard than the other Morgan Dollars. I know they do the same thing with early year Jefferson Nickels as well. The 1940-D and 1941-D are graded differently than Jefferson Nickels from the 50's and 60's. I don't know if it makes grading a sham, but I certainly can see the arguments from both sides.

 

I would be interested to know how long it takes the members of this forum to come to a grading decision when participating in GTG (guess the grade) threads. While it may seem like it takes minutes, my guess is that the average time would be less than 60 seconds. I know that it rarely takes me more than 20-30 seconds to come to a grading decision either from a coin in hand or photographs.

What I am saying is that the small amount of time spent on grading each coin would not affect my confidence in the assigned grade at all.

 

Yep - under a minute for the GTGs and when I'm at the coin store.

 

I agree. He gave us a minute... I rarely used more than 30 seconds to grade and notate the coin... Unless there was an issue I wanted to take a closer look at.

 

What slows me down when grading coins are the strike designations such as FS, FB, FH, & FBL. They are hard to see and if you get it wrong the price of the coin can change drastically.

@LostDutchman, did he provide any insight into how they assign the + grades?

 

He did discuss it just very lightly. As has been said before they do use a form of decimal grading... A high end MS63 might be entered into their system by the first base grader as a 63.9. This tells the finalizer that the first base grader thinks the coin is a nice 63 and from there the finalizer decides on the plus if the coin warrants it, or possibly a grade jump. Inversely he said that they also mark coins that are low end for the grade things such as 64.1. This allows the finalizer and first base grader to communicate with a simple numeral. The finalizer may leave it a 64 or consider a 63 or 63+. He said it only gets occasionally used and things like .5 and .7 don't get used.