New NGC slab type

NGC has released a slab variant that shows the rims on coins. NGC Slab

Charlie

 

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slick.

 

Very cool

 

Nice...I wonder if that will only be for coins with letters on the side (I didn't have much time so I didn't get to read the article!)

Speedy

 

Like I said before some where,,,, wait when they (graders) come out with computer generated gradeing!!its in the works as we speak, it will happen, so what about all those Iffy graded slabed coins out there for the past 15 years??????????I think they will have a sepperate price sheet for both..

 

I have no doubt that computerized grading will become reality. However, nobody can say for sure whether the grades will become an industry standard or treated as just another opinion. Also, every grading program will have slightly different criteria in the coding [or the companies will end up in patent lawsuits], so there will still be the incentive to crack-out coins to submit to the program most likely to treat the particular characteristics of a coin most favorably. There is also the possibility that astute collectors will grab the coins "misgraded" by the programs based on their inability to understand the concept of beauty in coins. But all things considered, I think it will improve the hobby.

 

Great comment, I still see coins graded for the overall condition grade, but one must also look at the strike and luster and toneing, These are also not mentioned today by graders,(slabed holders) so it would be the same for the new computer grades I would think, you as the buyer need to know what are the bonus for a given coin thats commonly graded, You can have baseicly the same 2 coins graded lets say, but the one with better strike and luster will aways be worth more, even though the 2 are the same grade.

 

Computer grading aside - that slab is cool.

As to computer grading - will they try it again? most likely. Will it revolutionize the grading industry? who knows. Personally, I don't see it. Whether a computer designates a grade or a professional grader does the job - it does not promise that the people who buy, own, and trade the coin will have to agree with the result any more than they do now.

Beyond that, my personal opinion is that it isn't needed. People who collect should be practicing their own eye for coin grading, it's part of the hobby. Slabs are nice for narrowing the barter gap on the bourse, but it's an opinion... I don't understand why people want an electronic opinion machine - sounds to me like a really complicated magic eight ball.

Even still - that NGC slab is wicked cool.

 

We all thought some years ago, "CATSCAN!", no way!, How can they do all that?, but they did!, and its now reality.......

 

Of course I understand that. Technology has come a long way, but that isn't my point.

I'm sure a computer could build a mighty fine collection for me to own, too. I just like doing it myself, I guess. But technically, a computer could probably build it more effeciently than I can. Same goes for grading. This is a hobby of aesthetic appreciation, taste, and opinion.

As it turns out, computer grading isn't new. They tried it before, and nobody really bought into it. If they try it again, with better technology and more up to date systems, I'm sure they will have better chances of success. In the end it's still going to be market acceptance, and people are still going to have different opinions. Computers probably won't change that - at least, I hope they don't.

 

Search the forum for Computer grading...you will see some good points on why is wouldn't be a good thing and how it would be just as if'y is the kind of grading we have now!

Speedy

 

Great idea! I can't wait to see one. I wonder how those "prongs" work to hold the coin. I'm sure that it has to be in some manner that won't hurt the coin. I'd probably like to have my 1831 Bust Half in one of those.

 

Now that is kewl, wonder if they would re-slab 4 free? hehe Would like 2 have my Indian Half Eagle slabbed like that.

 

Hey SDM....hadn't seen you around much!

Speedy

 

I think NGC has done a great job improving their slabs. I think they are the toughest material in the market and the hardest to break out. I wish they used a black backgroud instead of white as white will reflect all adjacent colors. Black is absent of color and absorbs all light energy, therefore nothing is reflected back in or directly around the coin. Anyways, Red Lincolns and White Morgans look great in the Intercept Shield holder (black) compared to white.

I still believe computer/technical grading is a near reality. We have laser scanners that can scan within 10 microns. You can assign digital value points to x, y, and z data and compare it to a given database of x, y, and z data points. The delta values (change of) can be measured against. The greater the differance, the lower the grade. Here's a sample of a laser scanned coin...just for fun.:



As for a coin's color, we have instrumentation that can measure color more accurately than any human eye. For instance, go to your auto body shop or Home Depot. Bring in a sample and they can measure the sample using a calibrated and consistent light source. The reflection of this calibrated light is measured and calculated. Remember, reflection of light from an object is for all intensive purposes, color. Remember that your coins will look differant outside at 12:00 noon than in your kitchen because the light source is differant!

So what is the given? My take, for instance, would be to take 10 PCGS MS66 1888-P Morgans, 10 NGC MS-66 1888-P Morgans, and 10 ANACS MS-66 1888-P and come up with a collective database of what "is" a true MS66 1888-P Morgan. Laser scan all of these coins to come up with a collective average for 50,000 x ,y, z data points on the coin. You have to do each coin and each year and each mint because as we know, New Orlean Morgans for instance have much weaker strikes than a San Francisco minted Morgan.

Scan in your submission, and if it meets a MS66 grade (with given +/- parameters)...then it "is" a MS66 coin.

Anything to take the human element out of grading has my vote...especially for technical grades.

 

As I've said before...you are going to have to have a human program the grading program that kills the whole idea...they can rig it to overgrade...they can make it undergrade.....a program isn't flawless and the programer is even more so.....if you ever find a way for a program to come to being without any person helping...then I would be glad for Computer grading.

Speedy

 

Well, we will then let the FREE market forces come into play because if the market doesn't accept the results, companies go out of business. After all, what do collectors scream the loudest when it comes to grading? Consistency!! That is, if the same coin is submitted 10 times, it comes back with the same grade 10 times.

Conspiracy thinking and worries aside, computers don't get tired at 4:55 PM at the end of a grading day. Your thinking is that some geek programmer will break in to the likes of PCGS or NGC and tamper with their computers, if they use a device like I mentioned, and program it for grades THEY want. That sounds like the O.J. Simpson defense!!

I guess you can make the same argument with cash registers, and all weight and measure devices. You are right. The gas I pump is probably giving me a .95 gallon instead of a full gallon. What you fail to understand is that when something like this fraud is exposed, the free market quickly has a choice to do business elsewhere. Companies are smart enough to realize that any short term gain is not worth the end of their business. Also, why would a computer programmer want to tamper with the grades when they can do that RIGHT now?? That's right...it is much easier to get 3 graders in a room and pay them off to grade a coin MS66 instead of MS64.

You may trust your eyes, but face it...your eyes are EASILY influenced by adjacent colors and other variables. Here...I have a simple test for you. How many white dots (at once) do you see? None of the dots should be turning gray. None of the dots blink. Remember, each dot is solid white.

Ahem...a laser scanner and a color measuring device like a colorimeter will see each dot as white and will not tire out near the end of a long grading day. Math is exact. (x,y,z) A from (x,y,z) B is a simple computation. Calculate that over 50,000 data points and you have REAL objective data.

 

Midas, I disagree with a few points. This will only work on VERY modern coins with no nonsense addictives, such as minor copper parasites. Another point that I disagree is with the use of laser scanner. Don't forget, a single scan is just a bloody flat 2D image. In order to get a better result, you need to have at least *several* scans at different angles to get a "true" image. Doesn't this happen in medicial industries for example to find out the size of a tumor? There is a good reason why photography are still kings when it comes down to contrasting sharp points. Afterall, if you wish to argue, our eyes does not see things in terms of 3D, but instead, our brain collects several hundreds of 2D images to make them look like 3D. Laser scanners may imitiate how we see things, but the thing is, our eyes still view objects a lot faster than what those scanners can do, except for accuracy.

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Back to the edging story, I have posted it at CU, and so I am copying it down here:

There is no reason why slabs can't have the edge viewed. That is a reason why I avoided coins being slabbed at all costs because of this reason. A coin is 3D, not just two 2D images stuck together even if the edges are smooth. It is a ridicious pity that edges are not well represented. If you think about the 1700-1800s European coinages, have you realized how much effort they have put into engraving the edges of the coins to thwart people not to cut out precious metals?

Taking the example of this from my Russian coin collection,





That alone is a small sample of what exists. I know that the British and French were leaders in such edging technology and has plenty of astonishing examples.

 

I suppose this is a bit off of the original topic, but...

I can understand how a computer program could come up with a technically consistent grade (as I do some programming myself), but a big part of grading is eye appeal in my opinion. Also, whoever comes up with the specs for the program originally will have used a subjective method of coming up with those also. For instance, what defines a scuff, what defines a spot where the rim of another coin hit the coin, what depth defines a gouge vs. just a little scratch or hairline, etc.

 

Midas
I'm not going to start to hit my head into a wall again this year...I've already said it all once...if anyone wants to read it, search back for "Computer grading"....

Computer grading was tried once (I think it was called Compugrade)...it failed...people may try it again...it will fail--
A program is made by a pregramer...a programer can make it so at times it can make a coin look better than it is...or worse than it is...there isn't any way around that...even if they made it so they couldn't do that...you are going to have more problems...what computer can say...that is dull luster..I think its been dipped...that is good stroung luster...there are many breaks in the luster...what computer can say that die crack is VAM#1A....what computer can say...that toning is AT not NT...what computer can tell a counterfit...

My firend...you know I repect you alot for all of the help you have given me...but this is the time that I think you are wrong...dead wrong.
Computer grading will fail--I have serched this out...I've talked to programers who know coins..I've talked to collectors, young and old...it may happen...but its not going to go over big...and I'm sure it won't stay long...

You say a computer would bring consistency...since when has a computer been consisten for anything...Computers go down, and don't work every day...I remember going to Wal-Mart once and all of the computers were down...they had to write everything down by hand and use their head...
I work with a Computer Business part of the time...computers AREN'T at the conisitency that many think they are.

As for the gas thing and the Cash thinging that you put in your post...it has nothing to do with coin grading but it wouldn't be hard to rig a gas pump I wouldn't think to give .95 a gallon (I've never worked on a gas pump so I can't say for sure) and still read as 1 gallon...and how many people do you know that go and make sure that they get every single drop of every gallon...not many...most people would get away with it...but then again I don't think I know a gas store owner that is so hard up that he would do that...I think you are safe...with coin grading...I'm not so sure.

You are right about one thing...the Free Market forces will drive out a bad business....just look at the many grading Co. have been put out of business because of bad grading...but NGC/PCGS/ANACS/ICG still stand...and have for years...if they were in-consistent then THEY WOULD BE OUT OF BUSINESS....and they aren't.
The free market trusts them...if they change they have the chance of losing that trust...I think ANACS is going to lose because of the taking away of the NET grades...I think ICG lost big time when they said openly that they tend to overgrade on some coins....PCGS lost lots of business when NGC came on the seen (BTW--I saw a POP report the other day and thought of you...it say that PCGS had graded 100's of this date PF70 and NGC had graded NONE in that grade!!!)
NGC lost business IMO when ICG came on the seen....they all have their ups and downs...but Computer grading is going to be a down...not a up.

Again...I'm not going to post on this topic any more...I've laid out before what I and many many others think...none of that has changed...
I know you haven't changed either...and I want to thank you for that...someone that will change with the wind IMO isn't much and you have stuck by your thoughts hard.

I hope you have a great day.

Speedy