Hello everyone. I am interested in getting involved in collecting ancient Greek coins, specifically Ptolemaic issues. However, I am completely overwhelmed with all of the information available, how to price, making sure the coins aren't counterfeit, etc. What advice would you give someone in my position? I'm assuming some books would be a good start. Which would you recommend? Online resources? Recommended dealers? Auction houses? My budget would be about $500 per month (maybe more for the right coins). Is that even reasonable? My biggest concern is just not getting ripped off. I want to enjoy the collection, the community, the learning and discovery but the end game would be to sell it at some point. I know there's a lot to unpack here. Thanks in advance! Nick
Welcome! Ptolemaic Egypt would be a great niche. Here's perhaps the best online resource for Ptolemaic bronze coinage: http://ptolemybronze.com/ Some of my bronzes: In this virtual tray, sizes range from 48 mm (91.8 gm) to 14 mm (1.7 gm). Here's a closeup of the biggie, with a 5 mm silver fractional atop: A shot of one of my nicer mid-sized Ptolemy bronzes: EGYPT. Ptolemy III Euergetes 246-222 BCE AE35, 35.53 gm Obv: head of Zeus Ammon right with ram's horn, wearing taenia diadem Rev: ΠΤΟΛΕΜΑΙΟΥ BΑΣΙΛΕΩΣ; eagle with closed wings standing left on thunderbolt, filleted cornucopia left; XP monogram between eagle's legs Ref: Svoronos 965 Formerly slabbed; NGC ChVF*, strike 5/5, surface 4/5
Yes, you can have great fun with that budget if you seek bronze coins. If you want gold... you'll need more green .
Slow down...take your time-- remember it's the hobby of kings...carry yourself thusly and get learned! Read some posts and get some books...check out some websites. A little work front loaded really pays off in the end. This hobby rewards patience and punishes (or at least confounds and confuses) those who take shortcuts and also...your end game sucks
Find a dealer you trust who knows the coins you seek and tell him what you want. It may cost a little more than eBay but you will be more likely to get satisfactory coins. The big decision is whether $500 a month is one coin a month, ten cheaper ones or a down payment on the annual $6000 item. The dealer will need to know that from the start.
That budget could also conceivably pay for one nice Ptolemaic (or even Seleucid, perhaps) silver coin per month. This perfectly decent Ptolemy VI tetradrachm (portraying Ptolemy I) cost me $450 at retail from Herakles Numismatics (a well-known, reputable dealer) last year. Egypt, Ptolemaic Kingdom, Ptolemy VI Philometor [“Mother-loving”] (First reign, 180-164 BCE), AR Tetradrachm ca.180-170 BCE, Alexandria Mint. Obv. Diademed head of Ptolemy I right, wearing aegis / Rev. Eagle with closed wings standing left on thunderbolt, ΠTOΛEMAIOY on left, BAΣIΛEΩΣ on right. Seaby 7895 [Sear, David, Greek Coins & their Values, Vol. II: Asia & Africa (Seaby 1979)]; Svoronos 1489 (ill. Pl. 51a, Nos. 1-5) [Svoronos, J.N., Ta Nomismata tou Kratous ton Ptolemaion (Athens, 1904-08)] (see https://www.coin.com/images/dr/svoronos/svc001p209t.html [incorrectly attributed to Ptolemy VIII]); SNG Copenhagen 262-268 [Sylloge Nummorum Graecorum, Copenhagen, The Royal Collection of Coins and Medals, Danish National Museum, Part 40: Egypt: The Ptolemies (Copenhagen 1977)]; BMC 6 Ptolemaic Egypt 3 (p. 100) (ill. Pl. XXIV No. 5) [Poole, R.S., A Catalog of the Greek Coins in the British Museum, Vol. 6, Ptolemaic Kings of Egypt (London, 1883)]. 26 mm., 12.14 g.
Learn, and have fun. There are many helpful people here. Don't be afraid to ask questions. You are off to a great start. You are asking questions BEFORE buying a coin. A sincere welcome aboard!
If you are in the US, consider checking CNG's eAuctions regularly. I've seen a lot of Ptolemaic coins sell for reasonable prices in these auctions. Just be aware that the bulk of the bidding occurs in the last hour or so, so a coin that you may have had the high bid on for the past two weeks will sell at the last second for twice your bid.
Hello @coin_analyst Welcome to the world of ancient coins. This is an interesting statement. However, let me quote it again, in the context of the entire sentence. Looking at the entire sentence, it seems that you have multiple goals : 1. Enjoy collecting ancient coins. 2. Enjoy talking with other ancient coin collectors. 3. Learn more about either ancient coins or ancient history. 4. Maybe, someday, sell your ancient coin collection, if you decide that you want the money to buy other things, or if you need the money to survive, or if you are on your death bed and want to give money to your friends or family, or if you want to make a profit. Goals 1 through 3 are easy. Goal 4 is easy (except for the profit), as long as your coins are authentic, and as long as the government doesn't someday make it illegal to sell ancient coins. I sure hope that doesn't happen. The US government has already put some restrictions, on importing some types of ancient coins into the USA, depending on where the coins were minted. I won't talk any more about that, because that is a huge (ball of wax, hornet's nest, rabbit hole, etc). For the profit aspect of goal 4, whether you will make a profit, is not known. None of us, seem to be able to predict, whether the prices of ancient coins, will continue to increase faster than inflation. In the last 2 years, prices of ancient coins, seem to have increased a lot, much faster than inflation, at least for the most in-demand and best-condition coins, partly because of the NGC slabbing phenomenon which makes it less risky for less knowledgeable collectors to buy ancient coins, and partly because of the pandemic, and partly because of the increasing number of persons in the world who are in the middle class and can afford to collect ancient coins, and partly because of the rise of the internet which makes it easier to learn about ancient coins. It seems to me, that, usually, you have to hold onto ancient coins, for a number of years, in order to make a profit, when you sell the ancient coins. A dealer wants to make a profit. Therefore, a dealer will buy an ancient coin from a collector at one price, and then sell the ancient coin to a different collector at a higher price. Therefore, it is difficult, as a collector, to make a profit, unless you hold onto a coin for many years, or unless you are a very knowledgeable dealer. Even if you happen to make a "profit", by selling a coin, at a higher price, than when you bought the coin, you may still have a loss, because of inflation. However, if the value of your ancient coins at least keeps up with inflation, then an ancient coin collection could be a good store of value, like buying gold, or like buying the S&P 500. A lot of it depends, on whether the demand for ancient coins increases, or decreases. If the demand increases, then ancient coin prices will rise faster than inflation. If the demand decreases, then ancient coin prices will not keep up with inflation, and the prices may even drop. I remember when stamp collecting was a big hobby, as big as coin collecting. No one predicted, that the prices of stamps would ever drop. But I've been told, that the prices of stamps have dropped considerably, in the past 40 years, because the use of postage stamps has decreased considerably, and perhaps because of the rise of other forms of entertainment such as video games. When I buy an ancient coin, I keep the invoice, and I keep screen captures of the transaction, including screen captures of the coin, in order to prove, where I bought the coin. If the dealer offers a certificate of authenticity, and if the dealer has a good reputation, then that is always good. If you buy a coin from a reputable dealer or reputable auction house, then this increases the value of the coin, when you try to sell the coin, because it decreases the risk of the coin being fake. Note that I have never sold an ancient coin. So I'm no expert in the selling of ancient coins.
P.S. : I also think, that the popularity of collecting coins, both ancient and modern, has increased lately, because of what seems to be an increased popularity of gold and silver bullion coins. Of course, ancient coins usually cost way more than the price of gold and silver. However, I think, that the increase in interest in gold and silver bullion coins, has led to an increase in the interest in all types of coins, including ancient coins, and modern coins. People like to collect, things with which they are familiar. Like stamps used to be.
I'm not too concerned about "making a profit" and I know some people frown upon ultimately selling, but let's face it... the reality is most of the great collections formed have eventually gone to auction. It doesn't mean the collectors were any less of a numismatist than the collector holding tight forever. Like anything (in the collectibles world), I'd simply prefer not to lose a ton of money. I understand the economics of buying and selling coins and think I would do marginally well in US coins... they just don't interest me. Thank you for taking the time to make this post.
Indeed. Unless you have a child who is hankering to take over your collection (and not just to sell it), or are planning to donate it, then we all either are, or IMO should be, planning to sell our collections at some point, or at least provide some very specific instructions in our wills how some other poor individual, not interested or knowledgeable about coins, should sell them without getting completely ripped off. I think selling a large and maybe valuable coin collection of ancient coins would be a pretty unpleasant burden to put on an heir. I was reading recently of the Swedish practice of "death cleaning" whereby towards the anticipated end of their life many Swedes will start to de-clutter and de-accession so as not too leave to much burden and emotional decision making process for their spouses and children. One doesn't have to have unrealistic dreams about making a large (or any) profit when we eventually sell our collections, but at the same time I think it makes sense to have eventual resale at the back of your head when buying coins. For myself I try to buy most coins at a good price, such that hopefully there'll at least be minimal loss when they are sold. On rare occasions I may knowingly overpay for a rare coin, realizing this is money spent on the hobby (cf golf club fees) that will never be recuperated. My end game is certainly to sell at some point in retirement (not any time soon!), but not before I have published my collection (or at least used some/many of them to illustrate the coinage of Constantine) which is one of the major goals of my collecting.
Others already have given excellent answers concerning budget use and tips. As someone who started collecting roughly a year ago, the following is what I'd add. Learn more about the history of the time you're interested in. When you understand the history behind the coins, you'll often understand why one is worth more than another, or you may find hidden value in a coin that others miss. Stick to trusted sellers and auctions. A search on this forum will indicate many of them. In general, stay away from EBay. VCoins and ma-shops offer many reputable sellers (though a few are sketchy). For researching prices, use coinarchives.com and acsearch.info. Additional great sources are CNG research and Roma search. Also check them on vcoins and ma-shops. Stores will often have higher prices than auctions, but that's not always the case. Several times I've let a coin go at auction because I knew I could get it cheaper from a store. Embrace the history and the fact that your coins are part of that. Don't get too caught up in others having nicer looking coins that yours or how much your coins are worth. Additionally, the following are practices I've learned on the way. They may or may not apply to you. Figure out how you want to store and display your coins. Personally, I do a write up of each coin, cut out a spot on the page for the coin holder to go, then put both in a plastic sheet and put it in a binder. Research and make a list of the coins you want. Stick to the list, or you'll go crazy at auctions. Put in comments on your list how rare things are and research prices in advance. These will help you make quick decisions at auction. Don't place your bids early at auction. Wait until the last minute and "snipe" it.
Other options for coin storage : 1. Abafil coin cases and coin trays. This is what I use. The trays are lined with real velvet : https://www.coin.com/ 2. Other brands of coin cases and coin trays, which are usually lined with less expensive felt : Lighthouse, Leuchterm, etc. 3. Coin envelopes, in which the envelopes are made out of acid free paper : Wizard Coin Supply, Amazon, Ebay. I prefer not to use plastic coin flips for long term storage, even the PVC free kind, because of possible damage to the coins after decades of storage. However, a lot of CoinTalkers use them. If you decide to use coin flips, then I recommend the SAFLIP brand, which is PVC free.
There's no shame in selling your collection. I recently had a discussion with several other collectors on the subject and in most situations, selling before you die is probably preferable to leaving it to your heirs. After all, after collecting for many years, you presumably have a better handle of which coins should go to auction, which are better to sell yourself or maybe consign to a retail dealer, along with knowing who gets the decent prices and ideally you've got some relationships built you can use. One of the things I've learned about collecting ancient coins in the few years I've been collecting is that my personal collecting tastes and interests do change and selling has been not only useful but an actual necessity. When I first started collecting, I collected a little bit of everything, though I had a special interest in Ptolemaic and Judaean coins. Then I decided I liked the Roman Republic and while I started out with Imperatorial and other late Republic issues, I quickly became fascinated with the Second Punic War and my collection is currently heavily weighted toward that period. If you looked at a snapshot of my collection circa late 2015, I've sold most of what was there, including over half of the Roman Republic coins that I either upgraded or decided just weren't quite up to snuff for the standards I was trying to set, and I've sold everything that was there that wasn't Roman Republic. Abafil trays are highly recommended if they fit your collecting style. Expect to spend something like $2-3 per slot by the time you buy trays and cases. They take up more room than envelopes or flips but there's nothing quite like being able to examine a group of coins in trays instead of having to open a flip or envelope for each one, especially when you're sharing and discussing coins with other collectors. That said, my collection grows slowly, 20-30 coins per year and the average price is about $200 each. If I collected coins that were $5 each it probably wouldn't be worth the cost to store them all in trays, and if I bought 100 coins per year I'd probably try to find alternative storage as that would quickly take up a whole lot of space.
I agree with much of what red_spork said but operated in the under $100 bracket a lot of the time making Abafil trays seem too much so I used off-brands which retired to the attic when my collection grew to the point that they were unwieldy and the coins went into paper. Having photos of all the coins made the coins being harder to access less a problem than the bulk. Mostly, I tend to sell coins that I regret having bought. In my case, those are generally things I bought because I thought I needed rather than things I actually wanted. In my case, many I regret were coins I bought to illustrate pages on my website when I was active in that endeavor. Part of 'comes and goes' is that ideas of what you wanted once might show up again as what you want in the future. I regret selling/trading about half of what I let go. I still recommend NOT spending money on coins that you need for life but considering the hobby money like what you spend on restaurants and travel. You do not expect them to pay cash return the next day. With ancients, you will never have them all or even the best. Enjoy the ones you have and don't sell a child to raise funds for an aureus you will feel compelled to cash in when the whim changes. Billionaires for whom $100,000 is like $100 is to me can have them and not lower their lifestyle one little bit. Yes, my heirs might get more money if I sold all my favorite coins now but I prefer that they are prepared to fund their own lives without needing my coins. Send them to college and tell them to get a job.
