Hi. A friend of mine has this coin in which we are trying to find out more info on. It is a 1917 1 franc(k) coin from belgium. The writing on the one side says Der Belgen so we know that it is this version. When looking in World Coins by Krause this coin is not listed at all in it. The only other coin that is listed for 1917 is a Des Belges version but no Der Belgen. If I recall right Krause lists a 1914, 1915 then skips to 1918 in which the 1918 one is of value while the previous ones are all 5 dollars or so in high condition so not worth much. Pictures are attached but not that great but will give general idea of the coin. Thanks to anyone that can help.
You have indeed a Belgian 1 frank Dutch version 1917 KM#73.1 I am afraid Krause is wrong in not mentioning the Dutch version of this coin in 1917. Krause lists the 1917 coin only in French version with a mintage of 8,540,000. This is wrong. I quote the mintage figures as mentioned in "De Belgische Frank - Encyclopedie van de Belgische circulatiemunten" (The Belgian franc - encyclopedia of the Belgian circulation coins): 1917 Dutch version: 3,910,000; French version: 4,630,000. Krause combined those figures. Still, the following note is important: During WW I, the Belgian government in exile in Le Havre ordered these coins struck at the privately owned "The Mint" in Birmingham. All of the coins of 1914,1917 and 1918 were struck in Birmingham, with the exception of 940,000 French version coins of 1914, which were struck in Brussels. The coins of 1914 have circulated in both Belgian Congo and "Free Belgium", a small territory round Ypres and Poperinghe. The coins of 1917 were not put into circulation, because , due to inflation, their silver value was much higher than their nominal value. Most of these coins were remelted in 1920. This explaines the much higher values for the 1917 and 1918 coins. The encyclopedia doesn't give any values.
K so an other forum member (belg_jos) has been pming me saying that the info that bart gave is incorrect. Here is a quote of that message. "I'm afraid this is the 1913 coin. Actually the 1917 Dutch legends doesn't exist. That's why I was sending you the message. I wonder why Bart didn't see he was making the mistakes when he was answering your initial question. I have the same books as he has, so I guess he got confused. http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvie...AucID=75&Lot=4 Here you can see one of the latest of the rare 1917 French legends being sold in Switzerland. I can scan a 1913 coin for you and your friend. http://users.pandora.be/labyrinth_of.../1fr1913vl.jpg Hope this helps. Too bad it isn't a new variety. I'm working on a catalogue of coins from Belgium 1832-2001, and it would've been nice to add a new find Regards, Joselito" They are trying to say that the one I have shown is the 1913 version. My answer to this is that the pictures where not the greatest since done just to give a general idea of the coin. There is 4 people that held this coin that day and are all in agreement that it is from 1917. Now here is my coin again in which I am going to compare to the 1913 First thing I notice right away is the space at the top of the numbers of the 3 to the 1 and the 7 to the 1. The 7 seems to be longer then the top of the 3 thus there is less space. Also the fact that the coin that he has shown for 1913 is in way better condition then the worn down one my friend has in which the the top of the number is still longer after wear. Anyways I told belg_jos just to post in this thread to discuss. added, I just searched the internet and found this 1913 hosted on worldcoingallery which again when looking at the numbers does not resemble the numbering on mine for the 7.
I can confirm that this is indeed my PM, and I really mean what I say. There were no Dutch legends (DER BELGEN) coins struck in 1917. So this has to be the 1913, if not, I will pay you $5000 for it. (That's called putting the money where your mouth is ) Kind regards, Jos
http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=91146&AucID=75&Lot=4 That's the link to the genuine 1917 French legends (DES BELGES) The link in your message doesn't seem to work. Regards, Jos
bart explained that there was pretty well. Now I am only assuming but I assume that des belges = french and der belgen = dutch. And finally it isnt a 1913 coin. I have looked at it closely enough and know for fact it says 1917. It just not that great of a picture but even so in comparison to the 1913 you scanned you can tell the differnce between the 3 and the 7. Finally it says 1917 and der belgen on it. And funny how yo started out that you wanted to see pics and buy it and then you say its not what it is and now you would take it for $5000 no idea what type of dollars when you are showing that other one selling for a high price which makes me wonder even more. Reason I say that because if my assumption is right about des belges = french and der belgen = dutch there was lower mintage of the der belgen one which would make it worth more then the french one by far.
This french version has nothing to do with this dutch version as far as proving what mine is or not is.
I have confirmed via krause my assumption is correct that des belges is the french version and der belgen is the dutch version when it comes to those words on the coins. I also talked to the friend that has this coin in which it was confirmed again that it is 1917 and he is bringing it in later this week and I will personally take the pictures this time of it.
Here are a few that sold at auction: 1918 Belgen version: http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=91148&AucID=75&Lot=6 1917 French version: http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotviewer.php?LotID=91146&AucID=75&Lot=4 I never thought about countries in the middle of WWI and how they would have had problems minting coins, while a war was going on or they were deposed from their country. With that in mind, I can understand why they are worth so much and with what someone said about many being melted because they had too high of a silver content, that helps explain the prices even better. Ribbit
Well I talked to bart and he reaffrimed that information that came from a belgium coin collectors encyclopedia that it says that there was YES a 1917 der belgen coin. However he had a great idea in which to contact the Belgium mint so I did so see what they have to say. http://www.royalmint.be/ added info------------ I am adding some mintage numbers for 1910 - 1918 as listed in krause 1910 - des belges 2,190,000 - der belgen 2,750,000 1911 - des belges 2,810,000 - der belgen 2,250,000 1912 - des belges 3,250,000 - der belgen 3,250,000 1913 - des belges 3,000,000 - der belgen 3,000,000 1914 - des belges 10,563,000 - der belgen 10,222,000 1917 - des belges 8,540,000 - der belgen (not listed for this year) 1918 - des belges 1,469,000 - der belgen (listed but unknown mintage amount) This just leads me to believe that bart information is correct even more since why would it be for 8years of mintages they do both but not for 1917 for der belgen. Also that encyclopedia when you add the two numbers the encyclopedia it equals the total number that krause lists. Its is funny how all this info adds up to there being a 1917 der belgen coin in which there has yet to be any proof to disclaim otherwise!!!!
Thanks to bart he sent me scans of the pages from the "De Belgische Frank - Encyclopedie van de Belgische circulatiemunten" (The Belgian franc - encyclopedia of the Belgian circulation coins): I am going to host them for the mean time but they clearly show that there was 1 frank des belges and der belgen minted for 1917. Next I would like to draw attention to what was listed in Krause and in this Belgium book for the 1918 mintages. Krause lists as 1918 - des belges 1,469,000 - der belgen (listed but unknown mintage amount with a dash (-)) Encyclopedia lists as 1918 - des belges 370,000 - der belgen 1,099,220 ---- combine both = 1,469,220 Again Krause has listed the 1918 in the des belges(french) section the combined number for both which is the same as what bart explained happend for the 1917. Looks like Krause needs to update there numbers on these coins.
So as promised updated pictures. It clearly shows that it says 1917 on this coin which on the reverse says der belgen. We also weiged it and it weighed 5.0 grams.
I'm concerned this is a counterfeit. On both sides, at the top, there's a ridge on the rim and considering the age and wear on this coin, that should be worn down but it's not, which leads me to believe this was cast from a worn original. Plus, it has that counterfeit look to it (color). Ribbit
You can't judge colour based off of the colour of the picture. I used a lamp so that I didnt have to use flash on my camera while using macro to get the close up thus it adds a gold tint to it. Refer to the top to pics for the colour since they are closer and show it as silver instead of this hue. Example is my other thread of the english coin that is silver but looks like this. http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=38198 Also as to there being ridges I am not taking these pictures direcetly up and down so the edges look pretty sharp at the top of the coin. This coin is pretty worn too. Just look at the vines and such. That 1913 that belg jos showed is crisp compared to this coin when it comes to wear.
Here is an extra. A video showing the two sides of the coin that my friend put on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXMT9koPlXk
Ok, I was wrong. I called one of the most experienced Belgian collectors today, and he said he knows about the existence of a couple of these. edited Thanks for educating me! Regards, Jos
Well a certain person did not put his money where his mouth was and just played games wasting a month and a bit of my time. Anyways my understanding that in a month or so the coin wil be getting graded. Just an update with whats going on with this coin. If it does get graded I have asked if he can show me it so I can get pictures of whatever happens with it and the guy said he would.
