Need Opinions from Lincoln Matte Proof on this coin ~09VDB

I have been pondering this coin for a while and decided to ask opinions. I bought it a short time ago in a deal for a group of 1909-VDB cents. It caught my eye and at first I thought someone had messed with a "S" mintmark and I found that funny, so funny I bought it to examine more closely at home.






When I got it out of the 2x2, I noticed the rims. Now I am not new to this game.I have 4 graded mattes, one I bought raw and submitted, and I recognized that these rims were different than a normal 1909vdb cent.

Normal 1909vdb :



This coin:


comparison,





Now I know how rare a 1909VDB Matte Proof ( even impaired) would be, but I had 3 markers to look for from the posting in CU. One of my Matte references said that markers were very difficult in circulated or impaired coins so I don't really expect the photos to verify much, but They do raise an interest as I do think I can see polish lines at the nose, but I couldn't get a photo to see like my eye as I raised and lowered the focus. The other 2 markers were a die scratch from the coat to the area under the right leg of the "R" in LIBERTY. Unfortunately, toning made it difficult to say 100% it was there, but here is that photo with green arrows attempting to point out what I think it is.





And the third is a chip on the right side of the M in UMUM. Here is that photo.



So, if any of you have any 1909-VDB Matte Proofs around, do the markers and rims look reasonable? I did look at the giant photos of one in Charmy's excellent thread, but still not sure.

Not matter the outcome, this coin occupied many hours and kept my mind active. It was well worth the money as a study coin! and I have been a good boy lately

Jim

 

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Definitely looks interesting. Here's a proof from a Bowers and Merena auction with some pretty good pics. I believe I can see the die chip on the reverse, but it seems to be farther away from the M. Bowers and Merena - Lot # 63 - 1909 V.D.B. Lincoln Cent. Proof-65 RD (PCGS).

Here are some better pics from Heritage, seems like the die chip is in the same place as on the Bowers auction proof. 1909 1C VDB PR66 Red and Brown PCGS. Although the 1909 V.D.B. product of the Philadelphia Mint is a common issue, it is rar.....

 

Thanks for those links. At least I can see where they should be. Here is another photo with that area a little better lighted. But I agree with the first mark being a little too close. I would like to find some more polish line markers since they only used on set of dies, they should help out. I certainly have doubts myself.

 

It is not a matte proof at all.

It is not a matte proof at all. It is a XF-45/AU-50 09-P.

 

Did you ever make up you mind what you had here?

 

Not really. I am going to send it to NCG just for the fun of it. I know that if the rims are chamfered, it isn't a proof, but this one is square enough to wonder about. The other thing is hard to quantify, but as I looked at the surfaces for bag dings normal on MS cents, I found none. All marks were circulation type of marks, rather interesting.

Jim

 

Please let is know the results when you hear back from NGC...I'd be very interested in hearing how it turns out.

 

I will do so. I hope to get the group off sometime next week. I enjoy coins that have some mystery ( even preceived mystery) about them.

Jim

 

Just looking at the pictures, it appears to me to be an impared/circulated proof. I'm nowhere near an expert, nor do I know the "markers" -- but the coin does have the rims/edge of a MPL, IMO. Jim, I think you scored here.

 

Now reading the thread...

You might (or I will if you want) post this over on the PCGS Registry Forum? There are a bunch of MPL guys over there that can likely help answer your questions authoritatively.

Hope this helps...Mike

 

p.s. Perhaps Mr. Feld can comment?

 

This was my same thought. I am far from an expert with these coins...but the rims do appear to have that characteristic squared appearance. Good luck!!!

 

Oh yeah, it is impaired. But I was looking on the PCGS population report and my 1909 MP that I bought raw and came back PR58 was the only impaired one . I had a thread on that one also, but I had more markers for it. I guess I will have to buy that new Matte Proof book Jack was talking about.

Jim

 

My guess (and that's all it is) is that the coin is not a Proof. It looks to be missing the defined squared edges it should have and the strike isn't what it should be (though, as a circulated example, that would at least be understandable).

 

Updates?

 

Yes, please update us...

 

Spot on!