Mystery Indian Token

I've had this copper Indian token for as long as I can remember, it was my dad's before he gave it to me as a kid. The back is flat and smooth. Does anyone have any information which they'd care to share?

Thanks
Bone

 

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This is just an educated guess, not a professional opinion.

I would estimate the age to be at least 75 years based on the toning.
The image appears to be Chief Sitting Bull, a famous American Indian Chief. It may be some kind of commemorative coin. It is odd that there aren't any markings and it appears to be incomplete.

Die trials are often done on off metal planchets and are commonly uniface.

This could possibly be a pattern of either a quarter or a Canadian large cent.
A diameter measurement would definitely help identify this item. How thick is this coin?

I don't believe it is a medal or war time token. If this was a medal, it usually would have some kind of mounting loop. War time tokens have a denomination on them which this doesn't. Uniface civil war tokens are usually not common.

If this was jewelry, it would have marks on the rim from being mounted or be holed. This coin doesn't exhibit any proof that it was ever used for jewelry. Coins were often holed and worn as jewelry because many people did not have pocketed pants at the time. Even if it was used as jewelry at some time, I still wouldn't rule out that it is a coin.

If this is a pattern coin, you may really have something there. I would not handle it any more than you already have and it should be put into a 2x2 mount.

You should show this to an expert in pattern coins.

 

28mm in diameter and 6.7 grams

Thanks for looking
Bone

 

If the image is Sitting Bull, the coin would have to be made after 1867 because that's when he was made chief.

I don't know any modern US coins that are 28mm. A quarter is 24mm and a half dollar is 30mm. According to coinfacts, a large cent is 27mm.

It wouldn't make sense that it it is a large cent pattern because large cents haven't been made since 1856. Canadian coins usually put the current monarch on the obverse, not a famous american. Obviously is is not a war time token because Sitting Bull became famous in the 1880s.

A $10 Gold Eagle is 27mm. This could very possibly be a pattern for a $10 Indian Gold Eagle. The designs are very similar and it seems to fit the timeline. Gold coin die trials are usually not made out of gold. Most gold die trials are also melted.

 

This is what I think it could have looked like.

 

Chief Sitting Bull (1831-1890)

 

Interesting, it's about the thickness of a nickel. There is a strong possiblity that it was designed with a numismatic purpose as my dad had a rather extensive collection which my little brother and I split when he passed away. My mother didn't want to deal with it.

Again Thanks Very Much
Bone

 

I don't see how the toning could mean its 75+ years old...
Toning can be done many ways and I've never heard of toning proving the age of a coin.

As for it being a pattern....I would think there would be some sort of record of that somewhere...and I've never seen or heard of a Sitting Bull coin....and that doesn't mean much....but I would have thought that it would have been talked about more.

Speedy

 

The toning appears original. It does not appear to be cleaned and retoned. I am aware that toning has nothing to do with age. The color of toning is fairly consistant with toning found on early wheats. This is why I said 75 years.

To answer your question whether a coin can be dated based on the amount of toning. No you cannot base the age on toning alone. Toning can only give you clues about an age and it's authenticity. You cannot reproduce natural toning on a coin, especially if it has been cleaned. The Indian coin seems to have been a pocket piece because it shows a moderate amount of wear. It has appeared to retone somewhat in the worn areas.

I don't believe it could be anything else than a pattern coin. The pattern could be anything including being a commemorative coin. The people who were originally involved in it's creation have probably passed away. There isn't a record for every pattern coin ever made and there are new discoveries all the time.

 

I'm 45 and my dad gave me this before 1970 so I'd have been 7-9 yrs old. He'd probably got it before the Korean Conflict as that's when my grandfather died, 1949 and dad and his brother (strange isn't it) split all his belongings as he (Grandpa) was a widower. The old man was born in 1915 and ran a Farm & Ranch store in Texas from 1956-1990.

Bone

 

Why not a token or a medal??

Speedy

 

WoW!, Thats cool!, I think maybe a pattern coin?Or maybe a differant type of comemoritive type for sitting bull that was given out at the time??

 

I don't know what it is, I just know I want one!!!

 

I'll bet it is a commerative token from a museum or historical society. I'll bet it came from one of the Dakotas or Montana?

 

Now that would be an odd coincidence

 

Yeah, yeah, I know.

This summer I went on a "roots quest" in western North Dakota. I found that North Dakota has many active historical societies. You just don't see that out here on the left coast anymore. We have too many useless things to squander tax money on. They have that big Lewis and Clark Museum near Mandan. North Dakota has a relatively brief history, but apparently, folks have a lot of spare time to work on such things in the winter.

 

Well, it is certainly in very fine condition and is an heirloom you may wish...

...to hold onto.

I've not seen one of those.

:bow:

 

Well, it's been awhile and several newer members have joined since this thread was active. Maybe someone can shed some light on this piece. The Indian one

Take Care
B

 

Hi Bone,

The size and style of your token has a very strong resemblance to a couple of my Ohi-yesa tokens. I thought I had an image stored but I could not find it. So it must have been on my former picture host's site. I think they cancelled my account from lack of use I did some searching on ebay and other sites, but could not easily find an image to link to. Mine are a little different, as I have writing on both sides of mine. The Indian on mine is slightly different also, but of the same design style IMO. Very attractive tokens, I took an immediate liking to them.

Search for 4575845998 on ebay for a related item to the Ohiyesa tokens. I don't have time to dig my token(s) out at the moment, but if you can not find an image of one, I will make an effort to locate it. I purchased mine on ebay. While there are none currently up for sale, nor turning up by searching completed auctions, they do show up there occasionally. I have not seen one exactly like yours to the best of my recollection.

If searching the web, you may also see what you can find by searching for "CHARLES ALEXANDER EASTMAN". I have also seen Ohiyesa spelled as Ohi-yesa.

If it turns out that you think your token is an Ohiyesa item, I do have a small bit of background info on them.

 

CWTokenman - Yes, I'd love to hear what about you've got. At your convience though, I don't want to put you out. I searched the item number and saw it was a book about indians, nothing further. I did another search on OHIYESA and sure enough more books about Charles A. Eastman-OHIYESA.

Thanks for what you did come up with. It's given me a clue as to what I've got.

Thanks Very Much
B