My Spidey Senses are Tingling

Discussion in 'Coin Chat' started by BIC, Oct 18, 2022.

  1. baseball21

    baseball21 Well-Known Member

    Discount/significant discount is always a red flag. If you know what youre getting into and can see why it is thats okay, but often times thinking its the best deal is often the worst deal when dealing with raw coins
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  3. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    The enlarged image is a bit fuzzy, but I'm wondering if the HR Saint might be an Omega fake?
    charley likes this.
  4. ksparrow

    ksparrow Coin Hoarder Supporter

    Welcome to the forums, BIC. It seems that you and your wife are buying coins that speak to you, which is great and what collecting should be all about. I don't recommend buying coins as investments, as they just don't tend to perform as well as other vehicles. I would try to purchase coins that at least will hold their value over time, while you enjoy them. The 2.50 Pan Pac you purchased sounds really solid-- MS66, CAC. I would avoid raw coins, except lower value ones that appeal to you. Expensive/rare raw coins usually have problems and can be major sinkholes.
    -jeffB likes this.
  5. Kurisu

    Kurisu Well-Known Member

    Welcome to CT!
    A lot of good input for you in this thread.
    Also...I'm going with AU53ish for the St. G $20 on the grade.
    And I agree about the concept that there's a reason it's not slabbed...without clear photos it's tough to guess.
    Is there maybe a very small but very "fresh" looking scratch anywhere on the coin?
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2022
  6. BIC

    BIC New Member

    I don't even impulse-buy three-figure stuff. I'll spend weeks researching a $200 camera or a set of tires. My wife might be a different story. ;)

    The dozen or so coins we've bought so far are mostly in the $1,000 - 7,000 range. We're not even looking to buy any per se, just if we come across something interesting.
    Kurisu and -jeffB like this.

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    I was hoping somebody would get around to saying that.

    And he's right Bic, matter of fact he's way beyond right ! Ya see, about 95% of collectors lose money when they sell their collections, even when they've held those collections for many years. As investments, coins suck !

    Of course that's not something you're going to find a whole lot of articles about because nobody writes articles like that - negative articles in other words. And nobody writes them because nobody would ever publish them. What kind of coin magazine or coin website is goin to want to publish articles that put coins in a negative light ? People don't buy magazines or visit websites that portray their subject matter in a negative way. They buy magazines and visit websites that tell them what they want to hear ! Not what they don't want to hear !

    That said, yes there are those who make money when they sell their collections. And you'll hear all kinds of stuff, find more articles than you could ever want to read about those - because that's what people want to hear ! People will buy those magazines like proverbial hot cakes.

    So, why do a few people make money when they sell their collections while the vast majority of collectors do not ? What's the secret ? It's fairly simple, you just have to do everything right.

    1 - buy the right coins.
    2 - buy the right coins at the right time.
    3 - sell the right coins.
    4 - sell the right coins at the rime time.
    5 - be very, very lucky !

    Do all 5 of those things and you'll make money when you sell your collection. But get just 1 of them wrong, just 1, and you won't.

    So keep that in mind as you progress in the hobby. Don't ever buy a coin for your collection because you hope to make money on it. If ya do, it's a near certainty you're gonna be unhappy. Buy coins because you like them, and for no other reason. Do that, and you will be happy ;)
  8. charley

    charley Well-Known Member

    Good Lord. (again).
  9. BIC

    BIC New Member

    First let me say I'm very appreciative of all of you providing me your invaluable advice. Also, let me add to @GDJMSP list--buy at the right price. Also note that for the past year or two, it appears coins have done better than other investment vehicles, such as the stock market or bonds. Let me tell you my coin collecting story.

    At the beginning of the year, my wife felt strongly we should buy bullion with concerns about the future of fiat currency. We bought some bullion from a nationwide type dealer. Good thing not really as an investment because the price continues to drop. But no worse than the stock market and that's not the goal. Even on bullion, we bought sovereign coins we enjoy, such as Britannias, Krugerands, Kangaroos, Maple Leafs, Philharmonics, Eagles, etc., as long as we weren't paying a premium minimally more than generic rounds. We shop around. Bullion premiums vary wildly.

    The sales rep, whom I like but is a salesman, suggested we also purchase numismatics as a long-term investment. He suggested a few Double Eagles in the low $2,000 range each to start with. We thought the coins were interesting and some research indicated they were about book value. OK, we'll give it a swing.

    That was followed up by periodic calls from the salesman offering some particular coin they just got in. The coins were typically high quality, relatively rare in the range of $5-20k. I researched each suggestion, usually to find them desirable coins marked quite a bit above book value and for sale elsewhere for much less at or below book value. We did buy some of those coins--but elsewhere. Interestingly, all the coins we passed on, were typically sold in a day or so to some other regular clients that apparently don't know or don't care they're overpaying.

    We did come to enjoy collecting the coins for the fun of it, but also making sure we were getting good value. There was one coin we wanted and unsuccessfully bid on it at several online auctions (such as Heritage, David Lawrence, etc.). They ultimately sold for what I thought was too much. Eventually, our patience paid off and we got the coin slightly below book value.

    One thing that strikes me when I watch these auctions is that hundreds of coins sell with many bids, often for more than book value. There's frantic bidding for coins costing $10k, $50k, $80k or more. It amazes me and leads me to believe coins could be a decent investment as I see the price of a particular coin going higher with each auction. Of course it could all come crashing down tomorrow. But the stock & bond market have already done so and looks like real estate is next.

    At the end of the day, I agree, buy what you like. But, I also buy with an eye towards future sale. Not unlike the house we built a few years ago. Hopefully our forever house and built accordingly. But, we did make a few concessions towards re-sale as you never know what the future may bring.
    Mainebill and Kentucky like this.
  10. -jeffB

    -jeffB Greshams LEO Supporter

    Well, sometimes it just takes the right two people trying to win the same coin at the same time.

    But other times, a coin in an MS65 slab is worlds nicer than other coins of the exact same date/mint/type in MS65 slabs, and bids run accordingly. (And, of course, sometimes a coin in an MS65 slab is much worse than others.)

    I can't compare two MS65-slabbed coins confidently enough to risk several thousand dollars on my judgement. But I'm a bottom-feeder anyhow, without ambitions of moving upmarket. If I did have those ambitions, I'd be studying those nice coins a lot harder.
    Kentucky and charley like this.
  11. norantyki

    norantyki CoinMuncher

    @BIC - the coin market has crashed numerous times in the past, and will do so in the future... as with virtually all markets, people get excited for one reason or another, and it overheats periodically.

    In the stamp trade, there was a general consensus among dealers that it was in bad taste to sell stamps as an investment... well, until SG started doing just that in the 1970s. Needless to say, the whole thing came crashing down in the late 80s-early 90s, and has never recovered.

    Fortunately coins have managed to come back a few times, and thusly show some resiliency as a hobby - just just remember, IT IS A HOBBY (and I say this as a dealer). Buy what you like at what you feel comfortable paying - if it goes up, great, otherwise you are stuck with something you like / will continue to profit from enjoyment of. Its just good to hear that you are having fun with the missus!
  12. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    I like and have read all the advice in this thread. If you're going to dive into numismatics, it would be my hope that you really enjoy the coins you're buying and are "into it" rather than just purchasing hoping to re-sell in a few years.

    You're going to find out that like everything else there is a wholesale price and a retail price. Unless you become a dealer and establish a presense within the hobby to be afforded wholesale dealer to dealer pricing, you will be paying full retail and competing with everyone else bidding on the retail side.

    On the selling side, it's not that easy to sell anything because there's so many other people selling. You need to have something really unique and desirable or a steep discount if you expect to move something compared to anything else. I've seen coins for sale for years! Price doesn't budge and nobody buys.

    Then if you do find buyers, unless you can meet in person for cash (risky, better go armed) anything done through auctions have hefty fees and shipping coming out of your sale. The higher priced the numismatic item, the more you stand to lose. That's if the market just stays flat. If it takes a dive now you're in worse shape and lose even more. May take years to come back. The cost of simply transacting is difficult to overcome even if the coins value remains flat from when you purchased it. In fact you can't over come it.
    If you take your collection to a dealer to be safe quick and easy, and say "I just want to sell all this", you're going to get the standard response... "I don't have time to go through it all" and here's fifty cents on the dollar for what you paid because they can get stuff wholesale. Then they re-sell your stuff for what it's worth to the next guy and make a profit. You have to say they do earn the profit having a business and taking on the burden of the security aspect ofi it. Plus just keeping the lights on and paying employees. People pay a $1700 delivery charge for a truck to dealers for GM to put a vehcile on a truck and simply deliver it to the dealer (with other vehicles on the trailer)for you to purchase, regardless of the distance from the plant and nobody bats an eye. lol The cost of transacting is a losing proposition for the consumer.

    This is why I say you should be in to numismatics for the hobby or probably just stick to bullion to be honest. Even simply buying bullion you better be careful. Stick to large dealers such as Apmex that tests everything electronically for fakes before it goes out the door to protect their integrity, as just one example. Stuff on ebay you don't know where it came from. There's literally fake everything out there now with good fake holders. People on ebay are losing 8-12% in fees plus shipping so expect high prices there.

    If you want to see nice coins go to a big show if you can make it, like an ANA World's Fair of Money every August. Been there a couple times. It's the biggest show in the World. You can find pretty much anything you want there but don't expect big discounts. lol
    Kentucky, -jeffB and BIC like this.
  13. Joshua Lemons

    Joshua Lemons Well-Known Member Supporter

  14. Mainebill

    Mainebill Bethany Danielle

    As to the high relief. It’s I believe genuine ex jewelry au and cleaned. The price in line for a details problem coin. But remember it’s a problem coin you always have to make excuses for. The 1795 is genuine. Not vf. I’d grade it f-12 and I’m not 100% sure of the surfaces. It may have been cleaned and resurfaced as the toning and skin looks too regular and even. Why it’s raw as pcgs/ngc would probably detail as altered surfaces
    Tall Paul and Omegaraptor like this.
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