MS grading to me is a farce. Bring back the old system of AG-G-VG-F-VF-EF & Unc. When you get into the fineness of the MS grades, how do they tell one MS grade from another ? If you were to buy a graded coin MS69 for 100.00 and the MS70 is going for 500.00, how do you tell the difference except for what somebody put on the slab ? I would bet that half of the MS70 coins graded as such, if resubmitted would come back as MS69. Dave
It's quite obvious. When big dealers send in submissions of a 1000's of coins majority come back ms70's, then when the collectors get their coins from the mint and send them in, in groups of 1-5 most come back in ms69's. If you watch the pcgs consensus, first month of a coin is all 70's, then after a year or so 69's and 70's even out.
Depending on the series, I can tell the difference between 2 MS points, but a difference of one point is often lost on me, and the star and plus designations seem like so much splitting of subjective hairs. The big differences seem to do with luster, strike, and hairlines.
I would say distinguishing a MS-69 from a MS-70 may be the easiest of the MS or PR grades from one point to another. The difference between a MS-63 and MS-64 could go back and fourth depending on the grader very easily. And the reason that the 70s are always high upon initial release is that large companies do huge submissions, but specify not to slab the coin unless it is a 70 or limit the number of 69 and return the rest raw.
I'm curious. Can you tell them that you do not want it graded if it doesn't reach a certain level? From what I understand, you will get charged whether they slab it not. Am I wrong?
I'm not certain on the price they pay for the service, but I know that they do those bulk submissions of say state quarter bags and for five bucks a pop they are slabbed uncirculated. Pretty easy since they don't have to evaluate each coin to do this. Where the threshold for submissions is that they will perform this type of grading is beyond me, but how often do you see slabbed MS or PR-68 modern coins? These must be returned to the submitter. I would expect that the mega dealers like silvertowne and a few others would have some sort of agreement with them. I doubt that you or I would get such a service performed without paying the full submission price wether it goes into a slab or not.
Large submitters do have the right to do "minimum grade" submissions to both high end TPG firms. It's right on NGC's forms at least. They can say "pre-screen these and don't slab anything below grade X." It is reserved for the big dealers. They pay a much lower prescreen rate for those that don't make the minimum grade specified, but they do pay something. I think it's about 1/4 to 1/3 the usual rate. As for not grading a difference between a 60 and a 69/70, umm, good luck with that. That ship has sailed. The ANA offers an entire course on Grading Mint State Coins. Is it sometimes "blue smoke and mirrors" or "voodoo"? Yes, especially for a 1 point difference. But I have a 1935 (P) Merc. Dime that is a MS60FB. Believe you me, you KNOW it's not a 65 or 63 at first glance!
This is the cover of the ANA's course book. Sorry about the photo quality. It's a quick grab shot with an iPad 2, which has a crummy still camera.
That and the fact there are no grades under 69 is why I avoid slabbed modern unless a variety or error.
Has anyone ever cracked a 70 slab and submitted for regrading. It should come back 70 right? Regardless of who sent it in.
Not trying to be mean but not all uncirculated coins are equal. If a collector can not tell the difference between a MS60 coin versus a MS63 coin or a MS64 coin versus a MS66 coin then his price for tuition in the hobby may be expensive. The new collector (or at least new to the grading process) needs to realize that not even all coins giving the same numeral grade from different companies are equal. If a collector can not tell the difference between a MS69 and a MS70 coin, I hope he is not putting out good money for the MS70 coin until he can tell the difference.
This clearly is not true, unless Vic was specifically talking about moderns originally issued since about 2007 and originally in a plastic capsule and a box. I agree that any of those that don't grade 69 or 70 are kind of unusual. But regular issues? C'mon! Getting a 67 on one of those is an accomplishment and a 68 can make your week. I took a 2014-P regular roll type Kennedy to NGC figuring I had found a good solid MS65 or 65+ for my 2014 all varieties Kennedy set and got a MS67! Made MY week, but then again, I may be too easily entertained.
Here's one way to think about why grading mint state coins is not only necessary, but GOOD! I have looked at many thousands of coins in the AU to BU ranges, and I can tell you this - the UGLIEST AU58 I've ever seen had FAR more eye appeal than the prettiest MS60. In fact, I'd rather own an AU58 than a MS60, 99 times out of 100.
The only thing I'm not talking about is mint state circulating coins. 13656/14286=95.5% 69 or 70 245 non dcam 7169 /7659= 93% 69 or 70 3357 /3612=92% 69 or 70. I could honest post numerous examples all day. Yes there are some out there in my category of everything but circulating mint state that don't qualify but most do. I just gave examples of proof normal from proof sets, and modern commemoratives. But the dates stretch way further back from your 2007 date. I'm a little surprised that a guy writing articles in coin mags would be this far off on his dates. Yes I acknowledge non special uncirculated does not fall into this category but skim the pcgs population for the categories I specified and we go way back. Back to about 1974 -1977 for most proof and almost but not all modern commemoratives.
Yes, but that includes mostly coins submitted somewhat more contemporaneous with issue, and/or cherrypicked nice examples. Are you suggesting the Statue of Liberty or garden variety proof coins from the 1970's still out there in dealers' junk boxes are nearly a guaranteed 69 even now? Because I genuinely don't believe that. I see a ton I would be hard-pressed to give a 66. For example, I have no idea what PCGS would do with a typical milky "brown Ike", but if you're telling me they're getting 69's, then shame on them! On the other hand, if you asked me to select 5 junk sets from a 1980's era year and ASSEMBLE a PR69 set at any decent coin show, yup, THAT I could do in 5-10 minutes. True 'nuff. There's "selection bias" in those pop reports, Vic. Most people don't send in the stinkers for grading.
I disagree. It was like the wild west, with "suppositional" grades expressed exclusively in words, without a mathematical rubric. Most of the coins were MS when one bought them, and then AU when one went to resell them. There was far less organization and standardization. I know it is extremely fashionable to trash numerical grading, and TPGs, as being evil, but I just don't buy into that logic. Following the Sheldon scale, and having a third party to vindicate that numerical assessment is a huge improvement. Do TPGs make mistakes? Of course they do, but the standardized assessment has reduced a lot of risk in the hobby.
I don't care how "cherry picked " you claim these examples. With thousands and tens of thousands of coins out there with a 69 or higher the market is crap. And we have many million of sets out there just waiting to be cracked out. 303 non dcam 17970/19354= 92.8% 69 or 70. I never qualified this by saying anything about cherry picking. I simply said that many modern coins grade 69 or higher. Mathematically excluding uncirculated non commemoratives you are simply wrong. Just be wrong on this and move on. As I clearly show almost all of the proof, and commemorates grade 90% or more of the time 69 or. Higher. Period. You can't argue with population reports. You said 2007 and higher. The population reports prove you wrong by a wide margin from 2007. In reality the 69 or higher proofs go back to the 1970's. Again just be wrong on this and move on. I grow tired of viewing population reports back to the 1970's.
