Mint state v. Ultra-cameo???

I am a newer collector looking to purchase some certified slab coins. Can anyone tell me if there are significant value or collectibility differences between mint state and ultra-cameo type coins, or is it all just a matter of personal preference?

I think the ultra-cameo coins look pretty cool, but I'd like to get coins that will have resale value down the road. Do both types of coins increase in value or is the ultra-cameo a "gimmicky" coin designed for eye-appeal, like those colorized state quarters and such? Can a coin be both Mint-state AND ultra-cameo, or are these two totally different concepts/minting techniques?

I hope my question makes sense.

Thanks for any input.

Andy

 

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A mint state coin is a coin that is a business strike--to have CAMEO or ULTRA CAM it must be a proof---
From your post it seems that you are looking at coins as an investment---if that is right I would suggest you look elsewhere---coins aren't a good investment.

Speedy

 

Andy--I was in a hurry earlier and thought I would come back and post a longer post on your questions--
There are many Grading companie out there that are out there to part you with your money---I would suggest staying with PCGS/NGC/ANACS/ICG
ICG and ANACS will tend to be alittle lose when it comes to grading coins dated after 1964---

Its not really a personal preference---no one knows what will go up or down--it all comes into the market---if the coin is easy to find in good number and any grade the price won't move that much---now if its a harder to find coin then price will go up---alot of things can go into that---not just the mintage---a coin with over 500,000 can be $$$....and a coin with under 1000 can go for the same price.
What it takes it for someone to watch the market and learn what is moving and what isn't---even then you can lose your shirt trying to beat the market at its game---if you like coins I would suggest collecting them and collecting the ones you like---not because it might go up--but because you like it.

Colorized quarters and CAM are 2 thing totaly---the colorized are done OUTSIDE the mint--they are damged--the CAM is frost that comes from being struck with special dies and minted with special treatment.
If you like them I would suggest that is what you collect---don't look at the resale value--if you want an investment--DON'T look at coins is my suggestion.
Do a search of the forum for Investment and read what you find...

I hope this helps----

Speedy

 

Thanks for your input, Speedy. To clarify, I didn't mean coins as an "investment" in the sense that I would try to retire off of them...more like, I'm trying to buy some coins that will hold their value down the road and maybe get a little more valuable so I will have a nice collection to pass on to a child or whatever. I know I am better off with mutual funds for the retirement fund! I don't have time to monitor coin futures or the regular old stock market either.

Thanks,
Andy

 

Well then I would think that I would still go the way I suggested above---buy the ones you like and think look neat---your child will like them if for no better reason than because you liked them
As for coins that hold their value--that isn't something someone knows---even silver bullion goes up and down---and coins sometimes move more than bullion.

Speedy

 

Speedy, I am not sure that is a hard and fast rule although there are those who preach it right here on this forum. All you have to do is look at the 3 coins on the right hand of this site http://coins.heritageauctions.com/default.php and wonder how you could have done better with your money than buy these at face when they were first made. It seems like there are thousands of coins that have sold for over $300,000.00 that were originally purchased at face. This might be sending the wrong message to new collectors and whether or not they will admit it I think most folks, even on this forum, hope to make money when they sell their coins.

 

That may not have been your goal GDJMSP, as your signature says maybe your goal, the noblest of all, is to share the knowledge you have acquired & accumulated. You certainly do an outstanding job of that! My thanks and compliments.

I wonder...... In the 70's or 80's there was talk of how much money one would have had if they purchased one share of IBM stock at its inception circa 1930, it was a huge amount. I wonder if a 1938 or 1939 proof set that must have cost about a dollar in their day would have kept pace with a dollars worth of IBM stock purchased in the same year. Does anyone know the answer? It seems the proof sets appreciated about 130,000% .

 

I think you also have to look at what years the coins were minted at---the ones you show were minted years and years ago---and back then few people could even afford to keep much change because times were hard---In fact I can't remember totaly right but were the 1804 Silver Dollars even in circulation??...if not then no one could have gotten them for face anyway---the thing is those coins had LOW mintages and they were kept for more than 150 years more than likely---now find a coin that is minted today with a low mintage and that is hard to find---get it for face value and keep it for 150+ years and then maybe you will make some money.....I would be the first to say that I could be wrong and more than likely am wrong---I know so little about coins---when I started to "collect" coins about 5 years ago I did it for investment or to make a fast buck---I found out pretty fast that I was thinking the wrong way---but one you start collecting coins you just can't stop so I went on the collecting mode and been loving it ever since!

Like Doug said---I really have never made any money either---in fact most of the time I take less when selling---there are coins such as the 1914 D Cent that I made $10 on--but I had held onto that coin for a few years...investers normal don't hold onto items a really long time---they want to buy and sell fast and make money---with coins while it isn't a never never its not the easies thing to do and most of the time you have to be in the market along time to do it.
I've sold a good many coins in my 5-6 years of collecting---in fact I've sold off a good part of my collection----and its harder than most people think to make money.

Speedy

 

I regret both of your losses Speedy & Doug. I am sure there are winners on this forum too, they just may not be as vocal.

 

All I can do is give my opinions and observations on this, because it isn't possible for anyone to prove anything about future prices. Also keep in mind that most of the other people here know much more than I do about collecting, but I think I know a little about investing opportunities. That said...

Coins with a high gold and silver content in relation to their numismatic value can be excellent investments. The nice part about them is that you don't have to be a numismatic expert to buy them, enjoy them, and profit from them. Coins that have little or no bullion value can also be good speculations for people who have a feel for numismatics and where the trends are headed; but it is a very special skill that takes a very long time to develop.

I tend to think of silver and gold coins as a cash substitute that insulates the holder from inflation. Take a look at a price guide from the 1960s. Most mint state morgan dollars were about $1.25. Some really scarce ones $10. So they have been a pretty good holding, probably comparable to a bank account interest but not as good as the stock market. Even here you must be cautious. I purchased a few indian head cents in the mid 60s from a local dealer, and I overpaid so much that even today I probably wouldn't do much better than break even if I sold them. [I won't say what I think of a dealer who would rip off a kid like that one did].

Some people will point out that gold and silver prices are about the same as 25 years ago, and take this as a sign that coins are not investments and will just move up and down in a cyclical manner forever. I see the opposite. Some of them are screaming bargains that have been depressed in price for too long. What else can you buy for the same price as 1980 other than a gold or silver coin? In the meantime, inflation has eroded the value of the dollar. Someday, this gap will be filled.

But it is easier to know what will happen than when. So collect what you like, don't overpay, and enjoy the hobby while you wait for a potential "profit." I put profit in quotes because it won't really be a profit, just a devaluation of the currency you used to purchase the coin. It's important to keep that in mind too.

This advice doesn't come with a guarantee. It is worth exactly what you paid for it. But it's the best I can give and it's the way I'm approaching things in my own collecting.

 

Skinny I think your question is an excellent one and in my humble opinion Ultra Cameo, also known as Deep Cameo coins are the Cream of The Cream, the very best. There are some provisions you need to know and this has become an area of study to me and I will share these few facts I have learned. I think only NGC uses the Ultra Cameo designation while PCGS and the other grading services use Deep Cameo for the same type of characteristics these coins display. I have seen 2 PCI coins designated Ultra Cameo but am not sure why.

1. As Speedy said almost always they are proof coins, the only exceptions that come to mind are the 1965, 1966 and 1967 SMS coins when the mint did not make proofs but made these coins in a special manner with a special type of press they inherited from the Department of Defense. These SMS coins in Deep Cameo are a joy to behold.

2. Starting in the mid to late 70's all proofs were made by the mint as Deep or Ultra Cameo as they prepared the dies in a special way to get this wonderful effect. So proof coins after say 1978 are expected to be Deep Cameo and really no great deal, they were just made in that beautiful manner.

3. The earliest interest I have are the proof sets that started in 1936 and to find a Deep or Ultra Cameo in those sets through 1974 or so is really a great find and I think someone will be willing to pay you very handsomely for it in the future. I believe there are earlier coins like Trade Dollars that can be found in at least Cameo but that area is beyond the scope of my study.

4. The Deep or Ultra Cameo coins of that 1936 through mid 70's era were virtually an accident or mistake ( I say that tongue in cheek ) as no special preparation was made. I think they were just the first few coins off of a new set of dies that acquired those lovely frosted devices and deeply mirrored fields.

Rick Tomaska has a book called Cameo and Brilliant Proof Coinage of the 1950 to 1970 era which goes into detail and even estimates how many could exist from this time frame.

I called PCGS and ask when they first started with the Cameo designation in their grading and they said around 1990 with Deep Cameo following a year or two later.

I hope this has been informative as I just love this type of coin. They really hold my interest because perhaps it was unintentional they were made this way or they are really the true " First Strikes." I am not sure which reason it is and maybe both.

 

Duh----I forgot all about the coins dated 1965-1967---you are right John---while they are not proofs they can be CAM or better---I have a 1965 Half Dollar graded MS66 and I really think if I sent it back in it would come back CAM PL.

Speedy

 

Interesting you would mention that Speedy. If it is a MS business strike exhibiting a mirror finish it would have to be a proof like or deep mirror proof like. If it is a SMS then it would be a cameo or deep cameo.

I wonder how the experts tell them apart at grading time as I have seen some pretty rough SMS Kennedy's still in the SMS package that could easily pass for business strikes as far as luster or lack thereof. I think somewhere I read that the SMS coins may have bolder lettering on them. I may have also read that the mistake may have been made more than once as a high grade business strike is not an inexpensive coin. A higher grade SMS coin is not particularly expensive without the cameo or deep cameo designation. Look at the spread here if only for information purposes http://www.pcgs.com/prices/frame.chtml?type=date&filename=kennedy_half_mod . A MS PL or DMPL would go off of the charts if someone were looking for it. Is it a PCGS or NGC coin?

 

I don't know how they tell either---but this one is graded as an SMS....

Speedy

 

You are totally wrong! This makes me wonder about your other 10,153 other posts!!!

 

How about citing the authority that makes you so certain about this?