I have 2 RR coins that have perplexed me for a while and would appreciate all your expertise on. Both have great men's names...but neither, at least to my understanding, is of them directly but rather relatives of theirs. The 1st is a C Marius Capito that I'd been trying to add to my collection for some time. It clearly is not pure silver. There is even some green, possible patina (it is not flaky like BD) on the left of the coin where you can see some bronze. The listing said "plated". Is that the same as a fouree. If not, what's the dif? And 2nd is Faustus Cornelius Sulla (I believe nephew of the great dictator L Sulla). The silver on this one appears to be so thin that it looks almost painted on, though I have seen other versions of this coin with the same look. C Marius CF Capito Plated AR Denarius 17MM 81 BC Faustus Cornelius Sulla AR Denarius 3.41 gr 18.5 MM 56 BC So that's them. What are all your thoughts? Plated, fouree or what? And please post any Marius, Sulla or any other coins you think relevant!
Thanks. I am reading this as you saying, these are modern fakes of ancient coins? And not that you are saying they are ancient fakes. Usually when I see that words ancient imitation it means they are ancient but copies of others. I.e. barbarous coins. Please clarify. And so that I can learn from this, could I ask what is the "tell"? What makes you say that they are modern or ancient fakes?
Sorry ancient fakes. They are contemporary with the real coin or within a few years or decades. Some have mismatched obverse and reverses that don't belong together. The fabric of the coin indicates that it is ancient and not modern. Oh and here was one of my best fouree's. Fulvia Second wife of Mark Antony Bust of Fulvia as Victory right Lion right between A and XL (year 40) LVGV in ex DVNI above Lugdunum, autumn 43 BC 1.37g Sear 1518 RSC 4 Antony's name is not mentioned on the coin but the date-numeral A XL (year 40) refers to his age at the time of the issue. A similar type was struck the following year which includes Antony's name and titles and recods his age as 41. Silver Quinarius fouree 1.36gm ex CNG 9/98 #1358 This coin was lost at one of our coin meetings. Not sure if it fell outside or inside but it hasn't been seen in years...
I actually just remembered I have another fouree of Antony with the same reverse as your Marius. Much easier to tell in hand that it is the two oxen plowing. Antony fouree bare head of Antony right Plowman with yoke of two oxen to left 2.30g Reverse immitating the denarius of C. Marius C.f. Capito. 81 BC
Awesome! That's better than hearing they are modern ripoffs. Thanks @Jay GT4! Sorry to read about your Fulvia. Just like the real Fulvia when Marc left her for Cleopatra...she got lost! Ba dum tsss. Thanks again for the knowledge and for sharing
My only Republican FOUREE: RR fourée mule anon Q Fabius Labeo denarius 18mm 2.9g after 124 BC Roma X Jupiter Quadriga tbolt scepter Cr 159 obv Cr 273-1 rev These are my Republicans associated with MARIUS: RR Fundanius AR Quinarius 101 BCE Marius triumph Jupiter E control Victory captive carnyx Q Sear 205 Craw 326-2 RR Anon AR Quin 81 BC Apol MARIUS GAUL Vict var 2 i S 305 Cr 373-1b RR Anon AR Quinarius 81 BC Apollo MARIUS GAUL Victory S 305 Cr 373-1 RR Lucilius Rufus 101 BCE Ar Den Roma Biga Marius Victories S 202 Cr 324-1 SULLA? These are associated with him and family: RR Manlius Torquatus L. Corn Sulla 82 BCE AR den 17mm 3.7g Mil mint w Sulla. Roma - Sulla triumpl quadriga vict wreath Cr 367-3 Syd 759 S 286 RR P Cornelius Sulla 151 BCE AR Den Roma Biga S 84 Cr 205-1 RR Naevius Balbus 79 BCE AR Den Venus SC TRIGA Sulla S 309 Cr 382-1 RR Faustus Cornelius Sulla 56 BCE AR Den Venus Signet Pompey S 386 Cr426-3 Athens c 87-86 BCE Time of SULLA Athena Zeus Sear Grk 2567
Ancient fouree forgery: obverse of Orbiana with a reverse of Julia Mamaea. Orbiana was Julia Mamaea's daughter-in-law. Here's a genuine Orbiana: A genuine Mamaea, demonstrating the reverse type on the fouree:
Got this one from Valentinian last year. I think he still has some Republican fourees on his commercial website quite cheap.
Those are both extremely nice fourrées, among the nicest in this thread! Here's my only Republican example, imitating L. Sempronius Pitio, 148 BCE: A section of the interior has corroded away completely, so you can see all the way through the coin.
As they should be! I find ancient imitations including plated coins (also called fourree and subaerati but all the same thing) quite interesting and collectable BUT they should sell for a fraction of the price of a regular, solid coin. How much less depends on a few things but mostly IMHO just how ugly the coin is. There are plated coins that have almost no core exposed or even those betrayed as fourree by low weight having no core showing at all. These may be worth a quarter of the solid coin in the same grade. Some core exposure that does not destroy the appearance of the coin or even add interest with an interesting pattern starts there and goes down to the point that the ugly piece of trash is worthless unless it is an extremely rare coin that you might be lucky to own as a fourree and have no chance of affording in silver. Ugly fourrees of EID MAR denarii sell well. They should not bring the $10-100k of solid ones but there are many people who would like one. A few samples of fourrees: Sextus Pompey with almost no core so in the high price group (25% or so???) Julius Caesar and Octavian with Agrippa reverse - ugly but rare to the point I am happy to have it Gold over bronze fourrees are common and priced by appearance but scarce gold over silver ones should show the silver so you know what they are. This one would be prettier if the faces were not worn flat but I enjoy seeing the silver and was willing to pay the $35 the dealer was asking for the ugly thing. The copper core one below is much prettier due to the pattern of the core on only the high points so I paid $45 but I consider the two about equal. There are plated copper/iron coins but they are rare. I once saw one (that was not for sale) which was a hollow shell about 3/4 complete with the iron rusted away. It would require very careful handling. I would love to have that one. I really do not recommend buying plated coins when what you wanted was a solid one. However, if you agree with me (and Valentinian, I believe) that they are interesting in their own right, there is nothing wrong with collecting them for what they are.
