legitimate dealer

With all the posts lately about shady dealers who advertise in coinworld, does anyone know good honest dealers who advertise in publications?

 

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Honesty and shadiness in dealers is a fine line, IMO. A dealer can be totally 'honest' yet take someone for money that that person could have saved if the person buying or selling knew more about the coins. Someone may label a particular dealer as 'honest', but all it takes is one person to feel that they were taken advantage of by that dealer to feel that that dealer was 'shady'. If you are looking for someone who will not take 'advantage' of you, then you better know your coins. It is up to you to make the decision whether to deal or not deal with a particular dealer.

IMO a 'shady' dealer is a con man (or woman), pure and simple, or someone who allows themselves occasionally to use less than better judgement and take advantage of the weak or unknowing. The first one can usually be avoided by asking for references, or not being quick to jump in on a deal until you have more knowledge and confidence that it's good for you, and the second instance is human nature that sometimes gets the best of even 'good' people.

 

Like Kasia described, honesty is a relevant term. In my experience buying coins, few dealers actually tell lies. Most simply lie via omission. If you don't ask about something specifically, they will not volunteer any info that casts a negative light on what they are selling. This is still quite shady though.

 

Gee, are you talking about Don Willis and his "First Strike" nonsense?
At least NGC has the decency to label them "Early Releases", which at least has the benefit of being truthful even if it is meaningless.
First Strike is a total load of bull - the coins so labeled could indeed be the LAST coin struck from a die just as easily as it could be the first.
Mr. Willis would have us all believe that no new dies are used towards the end of a coining year - just to line his own pockets!!!
PCGS!!!!! - slowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch...

 

I personally don't think honesty is based on the buyer. Because anyone can get a decent coin from any dealer, but when some dealers sell coins a premium quality brilliant uncirculated but give you an about unc coin at best that's been polished, that is called shady and being a thief. I was just asking is there any dealer that the majority of people believe they have received what was in the add not cleaned/polished junk?

 

That's all fine if you think the be all and end all of any business is simply to make money without any regard to ethics.
I don't.
I do agree with you that many other practices of PCGS can be called into question but that's a topic for another discussion.
Just my 2¢

 

Call me crazy, but it seems to me that these first strike designations didn't receive much demand or attention until someone created a market for it. Kind of like those infomercials, or unneeded services service garages try to sell their customers. Can't really talk down someone who created a market, even if it's advertisements seem irrelevant to most collectors. I really have to wonder if they will create much of a premium in a decade or two.

 

Well, I've had a transaction with Modern Coin Mart (MCM), a company that advertises heavily (and posts to this forum from time to time) and I was 100% satisfied with all aspects of the deal.
Since I mainly collect Canadian coins, I mostly buy from dealers in Canada but I suspect you are looking for American dealers.

 

Yes, David Bowers in the late 1980s, and I would still trust him, whichever firm he is with. I paid top price then ( $240 each for 2 1972/72 die 1 Lincolns) for 2 raw "MS-65" or "Gem" described. One was great and the second was less. I sent it back and quickly and with no hesitation received a different one which I accepted. I was happy but then when TPG became so "important", I sent them off and one came back PCGS65 and one PCGS66. His partner Merena and the whole staff was nice.

They only other dealers were a couple of ancient twins that attended shows in San Diego. They were both honest and willing to talk about coins forever. I forget their names, but after one died, the other moved and died also. I still have a lot of coins and good memories from them.

Jim

 

Yes, I would consider a dealer that gave customers sliders or cleaned coins without their knowledge and labeling such as BU coins, that would be dishonest. That itself is not the fault of the buyer, it is either due to a con man dealer (not honest) or a dealer that actually doesn't know how to spot a cleaned coin or grade properly (difference between AU and UNC) where the dealer actually thinks based on his improper or non-educated knowledge can't see the wear on a coin that will put it to AU and he thinks it's UNC. But it is up to the buyer to have enough knowledge to know what's being passed to him and if the buyer is not knowledgeable then how can the buyer put the onus directly on the seller, unless the buyer KNOWS the seller knew and can prove it. That is not always the case.

I doubt that anyone here can tell you on a forum which dealers they believe to be dishonest of the dealers that advertise in Coin World or any other magazine, because that could be construed as libel or slander, depending on how it impacts the dealer. A person can put an experience up they have had and label the experience as being bad, or such (such as this is the worst company I've ever dealt with, blah, blah, blah) but not to openly tell people that a dealer is not honest in his dealings without proof. I certainly would be careful telling someone on a forum not to do business with any particular dealer based on what you've asked. I will be happy to say that there are some I see in the magazines that I have heard are good dealers that know their stuff, and there are some that come online on this forum that are considered very upfront knowledgeable dealers. Whether all those also advertise in Coin World, I don't know. I would think you would get a better answer from people if you ask for their recommendations on who they've bought from that were honest with them. I doubt people are going to trash particular dealers just so you can stay away from them.

And anyone may be able to get a decent coin from any dealer, but I don't think so. I think there are always dealers out there that don't have the smarts to know or care whether the person buying the coin is getting 100% decent coin from him (untampered with or graded correctly). For some, the bottom line is whether it sells and how to keep the person buying the coin from returning it. So to me, it is a buyer's responsibility to do due diligence as much as is possible. I'll bet that the same honest buyer who gets a bad coin from a bad dealer wouldn't complain one bit if he got an excellent coin at a low price from a dealer because he as a buyer knew it and the dealer didn't. Goes both ways to be honest if that is what you are trying to get at. Human nature being what it is, most people won't speak up unless they feel a moral responsibility to be 'honest and fair' in all dealings. Not too many people like that all the time. And if you cherry pick any coins, then unless you then tell the dealer you are buying the coin from what the dealer missed and it's true value, then you are not being 'honest' either. You expect the dealer (seller) to be knowlegeable about the coin. But some people are 'honest' with people (sellers) they don't expect to have the knowledge and will be upfront with those people and give them a fair deal.

 

I wasn't asking people to trash any dealers. I was simply asking for dealers that people routinely have good experiences with. There are not many coin shops where I live so online and mail is one of the main ways to shop

 

it all depends on who you deal with , i use to goto bergen coin shop in saddle brook nj the old owner was with me and my friends now the store changed hands and its , not that the guy isnt cool but its i gues difficult to be friendly and stay in business long.. where are you located i can give you a list of dealers...

 

Honesty is honesty. Whether it is deliberate deception or omission of facts, it is still being dishonest. An honest dealer would help educate a novice or uneducated buyer. A simple act like that could produce a customer for life. Unfortunately, I think more people will rationalize their own dishonesty with "the buyer should be more educated". Very unfortunate.

 

Im in the nyc area, closer to central nj

 

The real truth of it is, some dealers are just in it for the money, like any other occupation or industry. They are not passionate about coins, and therefore do not understand the full impact of their bad decision of passing off sliders or improperly restoring coins without disclosure. I've tried a couple of these mail order companies, and some give all of them a bad name. If you happen to see words such as "we use our own grading standards" or "we do not use the numbered grading scale" suspect a possibility of a dealer passing off substandard graded coins. I'm only speaking from experience.

 

I have several dealers I purchase from in my area. I would not call any of them dishonest or suggest they have shady dealings. But this hobby is totally subjective in nature, and I know where their weakness lies. So there are times I evaluate their thinking and see how it fits mine. This comes only through self learning and past experiences with them. Thats why opinions about sellers can vary so much. Opinions are as good as your last purchase.

 

You are correct that grading is subjective. But that does not hold water when selling AUs or whizzed coins as uncirculated. Either the dealer is dishonest when doing this, or has no right selling coins, especially ones with grades attached to them.

 

ALL dealers are in it for the money, otherwise they'd just be collectors or accumulators.
I'd agree that some dealers really love coins and others just view it as a business.
The ones that run it solely as a dispassionate business seem to sell on cable TV or advertise heavily in the trade papers and magazines.

 

I don't believe there is any subjectivity if you sell a whizzed coin as uncirculated, but I would disagree with you on the AU vs Uncirculated. The difference between an AU58 and a MS60 can be a difference of opinion and this is where alot of the misconception happens. Now the difference from a AU53 and MS60 is in a different realm. This would apply to a AU58 and a MS63 as well. The ANA has conducted dealer surveys asking about opinions on various grades, and these descrepencies in subjectivity do exist; even among the professionals.