Hello Gentlemen. I am here yo pick tour brains again. I do apologize in advance because I gear this is going to happen alot.. So in researching theu Variety Vista looking at different DDsI ventured into the different varieties and their markers. So here is the questions: 1. Are there marker listings only for errors? 2. Is it really hard to find an example of what a regular strike would look like for a year? How do we differeniate between whats normal and what is not? 3. Or am I wasting my time because I am looking too hard? 4. Should I only be looking for the "holy grails" and toss everything else aside? 5. How do I know what would be considered different if its not a known error? Are finding new varieties even that important? 6. With different die stages are LDS even sought after? Or ones that are way older with alot of damage? Isn't it possible to accidentally pass up an error because of these 2 reasons? The picture is just an example of 'is this normal?'. To have letters not be on an even plane? Or is that PMD can cause this to happen? Just attempting to understand a little better. Thanks in advance for your time and effort in helping me.
Markers are referring to die markers on "varieties" not errors. Die markers are artifacts on a die that transfer to the coin. Example heavy filed die, clashed die,polished dies, die cracks, recut digits or lettering. Errors are mechanical for the most part caused by the machine, human error .
There so many DD's and only the major ones get any real attention. Example a few years back a 1919 ddo mercury dime that pretty much went undiscovered for just about 100 years...yes just because theres a split serif in the G of god no....could it be a ddo yes.... worth anything well maybe for the most part not.... the real excitement is going to a show and cherry pick a dealer. Pick a variety go to the show ask hey do you have a 1877 s seated liberty quarter? Why thete a variety so easy to pick as the 77 S has a S over horizontal S so easy to see and pick. Look for misplaced dates.... the wheres Waldo of coin collecting. Pick a target and go find it. But have a few other to search out the same time.
As Paddy said, die markers are used for varieties. They can be useful if a particular coin resembles a known error, but you can't really pin it down without the markers. A well worn coin may no longer have some of these markers as they may be worn away. Markers are especially important with older classic coins and help in weeding out counterfeits. Looking for a normal coin can be as easy as using Google or any browser and pulling up high pixel photos to make comparisons with. Varieties are a niche to the general coin collecting hobby but can be very fulfilling if that's where you are gravitating to. Always collect what you like, not what others like. Many here only look for those "Holy Grails" as they do not have a deeper interest in varieties overall. EDS & LDS are just another part of this niche. It's always nice to find a better condition coin in its early die state but there's nothing wrong in finding it another late stage as then may come the die breaks, die cracks, die chips, cuds and more. A good look through would be John Wexler's listings of the 2009 P Formative Years Lincoln Cent. Much EDS & LDS is to be seen in this series. A coin with a lot of damage in either LDS or EDS may not be worth keeping or may be worth keeping as an example of what it is and what to look for in any future findings. It's a fun part of the hobby for me and I have made several contributions to Wexler's listings in just one fell swoop. I was working on a Mint bag of 5,000 cents and discovered 3 new doubled dies to add to his 1998 P Lincoln Cent listings. WDDR-037, 038 & 039. And to the 2009 P Professional Life Lincoln Cent series, the WDDR-030. Nice to be able to send out to ANACS and get the only Discovery coin label for my collection. Have fun.
Uneven letters in LIBERTY on a Lincoln cent is normal from 1916 to 1968 coins. So is the High "W" of WE in IGWT. And I am sure there is other types of normal for all different types of coins. I don't know what they would be as I stick closely to Lincoln cents as a study.
Marker question answered above. I’ll try to answer the rest piecemeal. You either have a normal coin on-hand or go on-line to compare a coin. Using a shotgun approach to collecting makes things overwhelming and hard to process. Better to learn the ins and outs of one or two denominations so you know what to look for. I have 60 years of collecting experience so my experience assists me, you gain it with time and your own research. We can’t tell you everything we know, that’s impossible for any member, so you must rely on your own due diligence. Looking too hard can be a detriment, try simplifying your searches.
Continuing: A lot of members here, and most collectors in general, actually only look for the “holy grails”…the major distinctive coins like the ‘55 doubled die, the 1969-S and the 1984 double ear for cents. The minor doubling is not looked for as there is no interest. Since 2011, I have found about 7 minor doubled dies in all denoms. But I don’t look for them any more. I have learned the important ones and go through my pocket change. So yes, I do take a pass on the minor ones.
(…continues). Comparing known varieties with their corresponding die markers is the best way to confirm if you have found a new one. The pitfall is submitting a coin for the discovery designation and spending money only to be told it has already been discovered but for some reason was never listed. Both Dr. Wiles and John Wexler offer to have you send them coins for examination so they can add them to their files. And no matter how diligent you are, you’re gonna miss some. That’s okay, though, because, as said before on Coin Talk, you may miss the minor ones but you won’t miss the major ones…(smile).
…continues. A lot of serious research has been done on die stages. Learning this facet of coins and collecting is complex and time-consuming but it can be rewarding and satisfying, too. Variety Vista does a great job listing die stage listings. And finally, (whew!)… your picture has smushed letters so wear is a big factor in determining details on coins. Sometimes the wear is enough that, if doubling or clashing ever was on the coin, it has been obliterated by circulation and many many fingers. May I suggest you keep your posts simpler in scope, members will disregard them if they get too lengthy. I hope all my responses help you get to where you want to be as a collector. I look forward to your continued contributions…Spark
1. Are there marker listings only for errors? Markers are a means to confirm a variety coin and for which die stage a variety coin is found in. Surely, they can be used for a non-variety coin (a normal coin), perhaps to establish the die stage/transition point for the specimen. I really haven’t thought of it in that context before. 2. Is it really hard to find an example of what a regular strike would look like for a year? How do we differeniate between whats normal and what is not? Not hard at all. Each coin from a particular die starts out ‘normal’ and moves to a new ‘normal’ as the die wears. As you may have noticed at the sites we’ve been referring you to, coins are found at different stages during the life of a die. When you study a coin from an early die stage and compare it to another coin from the same early die stage, you’ll notice similarities and differences. What caused the difference? Was it a non-normal cause? If so, then maybe you have a variety or error coin. 3. Or am I wasting my time because I am looking too hard? We all look too hard at the start of this journey. In a few weeks, you’ll see another newbie like yourself asking the same questions. In our excitement to find something, we look to hard at things…many times under overmagnification and poor circumstances (e.g., lighting, equipment, etc.). You’ll learn to dial it back, but for now, you are about par for the course or even steeper on the learning curve. You, asking questions like this, means you are adjusting your filters. 4. Should I only be looking for the "holy grails" and toss everything else aside? If you are like many of us, we start with shorter lists, grow them to obscenely large lists, to dial them back to a reasonable risk. Some draw the line at the Red Book listings (akin to the holy grails, I suppose), but there are tons that aren’t listed by Red Book that are worth looking for. For instance, the Red Book listing for the 1995 P DDO is for the third most valuable DDO for the year (but the most readily available). There is another more moderate DDO for the date that is at or higher in value for 1995 P and the big one for the date is a 1995 D variant. If you only look for the ‘holy grails’, you’ll be missing a lot. However, digging down into the minor and very minor DDs will take longer and not return much on value…if value is your thing. Some of us like collecting lesser DDO/DDR specimens to fill out a date and for the interest in collecting…value be darned. So, creating a list and revising it often is my advice to you. 5. How do I know what would be considered different if it's not a known error? Are finding new varieties even that important? If you stick with variety hunting long enough, you will eventually get an attribution to your name for a finding. Fun…but not necessarily that important. Clearly, if you find a discovery piece, you’ll have no references for it. That’s why it’s important to learn how coins are coined/produced and how varieties are created. Knowing what to look for will help you know if you have a variety, or a common coin. Also, make sure you understand the distinction between a Variety and an Error coin. 6. With different die stages are LDS even sought after? Or ones that are way older with a lot of damage? Isn't it possible to accidentally pass up an error because of these 2 reasons? Yes, many variety coins are missed because they may be confused with some other potential cause. For instance, I found a ‘really worn’ 1939 Jefferson nickel. Tossed it into my hoard of old Jeffersons for a rainy day. When the rainy day came and I started to look for a Henning nickel, something that I had heard about in discussion, I was shocked to find that I had one. Looked like a beat up old Jefferson. What it was though was a counterfeit nickel, which look worn on the day it was coined, that had seen actual circulation wear and kind of blended in with the rest. Know what to look for kept me from releasing the most valuable nickel find in my collection. And as another example, I’ve found a few 2004 Jefferson Nickel DDOs. I was able to attribute these to Stages B, C and D. The only DDO stage left is A. So having a complete set of die stages for a particular variety interests me. Maybe not every other variety collector, but certainly me. And a question: Is an early die stage DDO in MS65 condition worth more than a late die stage DDO of the same year in MS67? Or MS65 even? It depends on the buyer and the objective that they have in mind. Trust me on this one: you will pass on a collectible coin at some point. Each of us has a horror story about the one that got away.
Kristine Garrant, posted: "So in researching theu Variety Vista looking at different DDsI ventured into the different varieties and their markers. So here is the questions: 1. Are there marker listings only for errors?" You have a lot of reading to do in this thread. Let me be a little more specific on this one. The dies that strike coins (working dies) are made with a hub. Hubs have a raised design like the finished coin. When a hub is squeezed into a cylinder that becomes a die it leaves a sunken-in design. Anything that is done to the surface of a die after it is made will show up on the coins struck from it. Doubled dies result when the hub is squeezed into the die a little off from the first impression. All the coins struck from that die will be doubled die varieties. During use, the die wears. Consequently, the first coin struck will look different from the last coin struck. Different conditions of the die are called "die states." Aside from wear, dies break or sometimes they come together without a planchet in between. This causes a die clash design on the next coin struck. Dies are polished to remove clash marks and wear. Polishing the die leaves raised marks. Sometimes dies rust or debris is present that leaves characteristic marks on a coin. "Die markers" usually result from polishing the dies. They may last for the entire press run and be on all coins or they may not. A die marker can also result from something done to the hub. In this case, it will appear on all the coins from all the dies made from that hub. Die markers are used for both authentication and for monitoring die states or identifying varieties.
some more info on errors https://coinauctionshelp.com/mint-error-die-variety-coin-images-values/#.WUzmI51KXIU And coins with listed die markers http://ec2-13-58-222-16.us-east-2.compute.amazonaws.com/wiki/1878-P_VAMs
As an aside, I would also like to mention that most doubled die Lincolns seem to be relegated to the years 1998-2006 in terms of how many different. There are hundreds of different for this time period. They are all minor and occur on the inside of the 6th bay both left & right on the reverse memorial. There are some neat anomalies in these years also and on Wexler's listings, they are noted as "Best of Variety". And this time period becomes most difficult to attribute because of the sheer numbers.
