Julius Caesar denarius

Hi All,

I was very excited to buy this today. I have always wanted a lifetime portrait of Julius Ceasar. I have a posthumous portrait already as part of my 12 Caesars set but I think I can consider this an upgrade.

Please post your coins of JC.


Julius Caesar. February-March 44 BC. AR Denarius (18.5mm, 3.5 g). Lifetime issue. Rome mint; P. Sepullius Macer, moneyer.

Obv:Wreathed and veiled head right; CAESAR downward to right, DICT PERPETVO upward to left

Rev: Venus Victrix standing left, holding Victory and scepter, to right at feet, shield set on ground; P • SEPVLLIVS downward to right, MACER downward to left. Crawford 480/13; Alföldi Type IX, 1 (A23/R9); CRI 107d; Sydenham 1074; RSC 39; RBW 1685.

 

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Is it an ancient fake? Kinda looks like it, is that copper poking through?

 

That portrait is different from most I've seen of JC. I thought the veiled head meant they were deceased? I must be wrong.

 

It does look like a fourree ... which is interesting in its own right!

 

Yes, it is fourree as are my Caesar denarii shown here. The style is a bit strange. There are many fourree Caesars.

 

I bought it from Steve at Incitatus coins. I am sure he would have told me if it was a fouree. I do not yet have it in hand so I may be able to say more in a couple of days.

 

I think it is a fourree, an ancient imitation.

 

When you have the coin in hand, look at it preferably under a stereo microscope. If the copper is on top of the silver, it is not plated. If it is in recesses, it is. Photos can be deceptive. I may be influenced by the fact that I do not recognize the style as 'normal' but it would not be the first time I was wrong today.

 

Burst my bubble why don't ya?

 

I sent an email to Steve with the fouree concerns and received an answer very quickly. Here is what he wrote:

"I inspected this coin with that in mind specifically, but what is going on with the reverse is simply some corrosion, and the coin appears to have been cleaned mechanically rather than chemically (hence the uneven toning). Magnified inspection of the pitting shows it is silvery grey (most noticeably in spots in the left reverse field). Also notice the graininess above Caesar's head - this is an area I would expect to see some bubbling if it was a plated. If it was in fact a fouree, the banker's marks on the obverse would show the core. Also of great reassurance is the high weight (allowing for wear and corrosion) of 3.5g - as well as the circulation wear, so the coin is intact and not crystallized."

I was definitely reassured by this and am looking forward to having the coin in hand.

 

From what I have read the use of the veil signifies JC's position as Pontifex Maximus.

 

Yes on the veil.

On the issue of it possibly being a fourree, I checked the citation of Alföldi Type IX, 1 (A23/R9). You probably aren't familiar with it, but Andreas Alföldi published a die study of Caesar issues from 44 BC (though there are some coins illustrated outside of 44 BC but it's in German so I can only look at pictures and tables). I was impressed that Alföldi was cited because that really shows some homework. Unfortunately, the citation is incorrect. I don't know which die it is, even if there is a match, because there is 70 obverse dies listed for Type IX and going through them is a chore.

Your seller's explanation of the condition issues is very good and may be completely correct. The weight being 3.5g is not really high, however and is inconclusive IMO. He has another coin listed on is site that is a Marc Antony fourree and it is also 3.5g so that weight is middling to a bit light. I have 2 examples of this coin, one with the shield and another with the star and they are 3.98g and 3.85g respectively.

The style is really hard for me to tell if it is correct or not because style ranged all over the place and, again, it would take quite some time to go though the die study to see. Even then, many fourrees were made from transfers of real coins so the style can be OK. If I had to make a determination, I think the portrait is a bit odd and the adam's apple in particular is overly exaggerated. The reverse, however, looks fine design wise to my eye.

From the picture, I would say it's definitely a fourree. From the seller's explanation, it seems he's done his study on it and found it not a fourree so that would give me pause on my opinion. You can't judge 100% from a picture, and even in hand, forgeries can be deceptive.

Either way, neat coin. Don't let it ruin your new coin if it a fourree. Get a discount and keep it!

 

The only person so far who's had an in-hand view of this coin so far is the dealer, and it sounds like he's taken a close look at it, so I'm inclined to go with his opinion. But once you do get the coin, I'd go with Doug's suggestion and take a look at it under a microscope.

The DICT PERPETVO legend was the one I was keen to get for my JC portrait coin too, but I'd only be comfortable calling it "possible lifetime issue". This series did of course start during his lifetime, but there's no reason to think they stop striking them the day he was assassinated, and in all likelihood they continued to be struck for a couple of months after he died. My understanding is that of the portrait coins preceding these, those with the CAESAR DICT QVART are definitely lifetime, and those with CAESAR IMP much more likely than DICT PERPETVO. /endnitpicking

 

my first thought was, "fouree" as well....but i'll echo everyone else, it's a cool coin either way. wouldn't change the value of the coin much for me if it was or wasn't.

 

I think this is the only JC denarius I have a photo of that I haven't posted here already:

 

My only JC portrait coin:


A couple of other JC coins:

 

I am of the opinion that this seller would be able to tell a fourree if he were cued to look for it so his second look and belief it is OK is reason to believe the coin is OK. So far this year I have bought a total of ten coins of which two were from him. I prefer to think he can tell and would be straight up about it.

 

The slice marks on the back of the head and in the veil don't look like deposits. They look like the slices exposed copper beneath. Let us know when you get it.

 

Naturally, I LOVE all the posts!!! And, I'm inclined to accept the sellers explanation, even though the appearance of the OP coin suggests a 'fourree'...

In any case, the coin is wonderful and I'd LOVE to own it. Congrats @Orfew !!!

My sole 'youthful' posthumous portrait of JC and Octavian:

 

Thanks to all for your helpful advice and comments. I also appreciate the photos of other coins of JC. I received a prompt refund for the coin. The seller was understanding and even sent me extra photos and spent much time addressing my doubts. I will have no problem dealing with him again. What sealed my decision was the fact that I still had some doubts about the coin. There will always be another coin for me to buy. I will just have to wait a little longer to upgrade my JC.

Thanks again to all for your help with this.