Julius Caesar Denarius - Genuine or Not?

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by SeekingAncients, Oct 23, 2018.

  1. SeekingAncients

    SeekingAncients New Member

    Hi folks,

    I purchased this coin from a seemingly reputable dealer who guarantees authenticity. This gave me considerable confidence in purchasing this coin. I received it today though and am somewhat concerned because the weight is only 3.2 grams, which is considerably lighter than any of these I have ever seen before (most I have seen range from 3.5-4.1 grams). That being said, the coin has some surface corrosion which may be responsible for the light weight. I am just hoping to get opinions from anyone here on whether it looks genuine to you. I know it is very difficult to determine from photos alone but any guidance would be appreciated. I apologize if this is a dumb question or if I have missed something obvious.

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  3. Severus Alexander

    Severus Alexander find me at NumisForums

    The style definitely looks off to me, especially the snake and the elephant's ear, but also the trunk, wrinkles on the elephant's legs, and the securis (axe). The elephant is a strange combination of the "dumpy" style and the tall, more majestic style. Could be an ancient fourrée (which would explain the weight), but usually they are of more accurate style. (The fabric vaguely reminds me of Toronto group forgeries, but I have never seen one of those in person.)

    If it were me, I would return it. Too many question marks. :(
     
  4. Nemo

    Nemo Well-Known Member

    Who was the dealer?
     
  5. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Like Nemo, I want to know the source of this because that can be very helpful. You said you bought it from a reputable dealer who guarantees authenticity so that is good. Perhaps our concerns are baseless.

    Like Sev, this coin makes me uncomfortable. Julius Caesar elephant denarii are plentiful, as are fakes. The elephant style has a great range and it is difficult for me to condemn the coin based on style alone. However, even though there is a tremendous range of elephant style, this one has some characteristics which raise questions. The elephant's head and how the head joins the neck is more like the most crude style of elephant (see coin below) but the body is of a different style. The very sharp straight "wrinkle lines" on the legs don't look quite right, especially given the wear on the rest of the coin. Also on the OP coin the elephant's trunk is only slightly higher than the eyes. I scanned through hundreds of these coins in archives and didn't find any with the trunk held that low. found only a couple with this trunk position (maybe this isn't important).

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    The lettering of CAESAR looks off too. Perhaps it is from wear but some of the letters have serifs and some don't. Perhaps there is similar inconsistency found in genuine coins... I don't know.

    The fabric of the OP coin looks off too. It is oddly lumpy. The patina looks odd as well.

    I didn't see any matches, either cast matches or die matches of pressed fakes, in the usual archives.

    I could very well be wrong about each and every suspicion raised but knowing that this type of coin is widely faked is and given the wide range of styles, it is good to have a higher degree of suspicion for the type. This is a coin that should be looked at in hand by an experienced numismatist. Perhaps the dealer who sold it to you is such a person.

    Here's the OP coin joined for ease of viewing, and with the reverse orientation corrected:

    CT-SeekingAncients-JCelephant.jpg
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2018
  6. Bing

    Bing Illegitimi non carborundum Supporter

    Something seems wrong to my old eyes, but, to be honest, I'm not sure why. Hopefully I'm wrong.
     
  7. TIF

    TIF Always learning.

    Another peculiarity: the weight is light but the flan is huge for the type.
     
  8. Ken Dorney

    Ken Dorney Yea, I'm Cool That Way...

    The style on the OP coin is odd to say the least and I have never seen one quite like it (though that in itself does not mean fake). Something about the beaded border on the reverse makes me uncomfortable. Also if you look closely the coin has virtually no wear despite the surface corrosion present in the fields. One would expect the devices to also be corroded but its possible it was improperly cleaned. Bottom line, you need to show it to someone in person. Either take it to a coin show where there are experienced dealers or send it off for authentication.
     
    Andres2 likes this.
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