I've been burned before so...MD?

This time i figured I would ask another way...is the mint mark machine doubling? I might have to get it under natural light for a better view but what are thoughts on this one?

 

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ok...that was funny

 

Do you see all of those parallel striations radiating outward toward the rim? Those are an indication of die deterioration, and so is that (false) doubling.

Chris

 

The 99 p Jefferson with that mint mark has been posted here many times. Including a post I made couple of years ago. Most are struck with severely abrated dies but there are some that aren't. The big argument always ensues about the mint mark not being struck into the die at this time, and the only possible explanation is abrated die doubling. I'm not convinced of that and never will be. There are several series of coins around this time frame and after that still show the crater effect around the mint mark which is strong evidence of a punched mint mark. Your coin is a good representative of what I as well as others have seen.

 

You can clearly see 2 separate Ps on this coin.

 

I see the striations and normally the false doubling I've come across happens in multiple locations or letters. This was the first time I have seen it only on one letter hence my confusion. However, just so I understand, false doubling can happen in triplicate as well?

 

Actually, I see 3 "P's" but cant get a good enough picture of it.

 

I only see two P's with some circulation damage to go with them.

Chris

 

Why does a die crack occur in one place but not another? Why do some die cracks occur in multiple places on a die? The same thing happens with die deterioration.

Only your hairdresser knows!

Chris

 

Yeah, it was hard to get a good enough side view picture, but the most likely scenario is that my eyes could be tired going through the coins.

 

I agree, but if I read enough on die deterioration correctly and understand the outward flow of a pressed die then a simple die deterioration wouldn't make much sense here. If you look at the "P" again you will see it pivots on top of the other but if you look at what happens in die deterioration it is always a flow outward toward the rim. I just don't see it here but again, I am new to this and not 100% sure.

 

I think you mean "crater effect" which is a term I started using more than 20 years ago to describe the raised metal along the edge of a gouge in a coin. However, it does not apply to this coin because the Mint stopped hand-punching the mintmarks into the working dies in 1990.

If you examine any of the mintmark punches that were once used, you will see that there is a flat surface surrounding the letter just like the field of a die which prevents metal from pushing up along the edge when the letter is punched into the die. You can argue this point all you want, but you will be wrong.

Chris

 

I have wasted a lot of thought on this mint mark. Even bought rolls of uncirculated 99's to examine at a later date, but haven't took the time to thoroughly check them. I will someday. It without a doubt doesn't show up in progression, which leaves me to believe one of two things happened here. Either the mint mark was repunched after the die had began to deteriorate or wear, or the die was rehubbed. The bottom mint mark is sharper than the top one, which could/should indicate that it was struck later in the life of the die.

 

Here is an interesting note on the subject:

"Die deterioration is another form of doubling, again similar in appearance to a re-entry ['Re-entry' was Forbes' term for repunching and hub-doubling - KP] to the naked and inexperienced eye. There is a great difference however, in that this doubling is not sharp and that the outlining is sometimes visible on both sides of a character, although, always strongest on the side toward the outside rim of the coin. In most instances, deterioration is noticed first on the very edge of the die, near and between the beading or teething, but seldom around the full circle."

 

just to add to the confusion:

"Close examination of affected features show that the doubling is extremely irregular. This is because the coin metal does not flow from just one direction, but flows and produces wear on the die from all sides. There is no definite shape, and it can take on several different but similar appearances. It often looks like a thin metal shelf or spreading spot. It can also make lettering appear thick and twisted. There are no crisp lines affected, but things generally look bloated, enlarged, blurry, twisted, and damaged. This is different from hub doubling, because hub doubling appears as a crisp secondary image, rotated minutely from the original."

 

Here’s what I see, the P to the NW appears to be lower then the other P. If it was true doubling, they would be level.

 

Huh? Please explain that one.

 

Just looked at the coin again to make sure and they are the same height. I will take a better pic with natural light and post.

 

I was mostly looking inside of the hole in the P. Seems to be more rounded towards the bottom. Could just be the angle or the light.