As a new collector, I am trying to learn the ropes as it relates to cleaned coins. I've already acclimated to the idea that a coin can be minted, dumped into a hopper, distributed in bags, carried and handled by an auto mechanic, passed around to 700,000 people in and out of cash registers, dropped on the cement sidewalk or down sewer grates and only occasionally picked up, eaten by a dog and shat, and then kept under my grandpa's oven for 13 years before I take possession of it, but if I accidentally touch it or blow on it, it is ruined. Fine. This is one of the first coins I ever owned, before I realized that shiny does not mean perfect. Obviously the coin is cleaned, but is it improperly cleaned? I have since purchased Mint State slabbed coins (NGC) that have notable surface imperfections consistent with circulation, but no toning whatsoever. These coins have been cleaned, I'm sure, but they have been favorably graded. Is the problem primarily one of clearly abrasive cleaning such that the coin has heavy scratching, detail wear, etc? I've seen stackers on YouTube cleaning coins with vinegar or lemon juice or baking soda, etc. I understand that a collector would not do that, but besides being less collectible/valuable, is it still considered gradable by a TPG if it is shiny and clean but not dull or obviously whizzed?
Yes it is improperly cleaned. Anything that alters the surface of the coin is improper. This coin was probably given a quick polish with a polish cloth. Some of the original mint luster is remaining but it's obviously impaired.
Wow... at this point would I be better off just to throw it out into the back yard for a few years? Is there any hope of reclaiming the desirability of this coin once it tones?
Would it be correct to say that improperly cleaned coins often have a "grainy" shiny surface, as opposed to a perfectly smooth, shiny surface?
Damage? Not by anyone I know... But I do know there are people out there who can fix certain types of coins with issues.
One "repairable" damage that occurs to me would be the removal of a fingerprint with an organic solvent rinse (acetone, xylene, etc.) before it has gotten un-removeable.
Miko - Yes there is a difference between cleaning a coin and harshly cleaning a coin. Cleaning, when done properly is perfectly acceptable and even done by the TPGs themselves. And there are very few ways of doing it. Harsh or improper cleaning is not acceptable, and there many, many, many - did I say many ? - different ways of doing it. And once done it cannot be repaired or fixed. You can however remove the signs of harsh/improper cleaning with plain old ordinary wear. And it's just that simple. You put a harshly cleaned in your pocket with other change and carry it around for a few years and eventually the signs of harsh cleaning will be worn away. Of course that doesn't change much for you because all that additional wear is in the end just as bad monetarily as the harsh cleaning was to begin with. So you may as well not bother. And Rick, yes some damage can be repaired. A scratch for instance is damage but they can be repaired with a laser, or putty. And only the very best will ever be able to tell the repair was done. Putty and lasers even fool the TPGs most of the time. OK, I won't say most but a lot. Bad hits and contact marks can also be repaired with putty. This is the kind of thing Matt was talking about. But as a general rule, no damage, once done, cannot be repaired. And I define damage as something that would cause a coin to be designated as a problem coin. Other things that can sometimes be repaired do not and would not cause a coin to designated as a problem coin. As mentioned fingerprints can be easily removed if fresh, and even old ones can be removed by dipping. But that is a much riskier prospect. But fingerprints do not cause a coin to designated as problem coin and so are not looked upon by most as damage - others may disagree. And hairlines can be repaired by a laser, but again hairlines are rarely cause for a problem coin designation. Of course that repair can still be detected by those with the skill to do so. And once it is detected, then the coin does become a problem coin.
However I have seen it stated that harshly cleaned coins were just worth melt price. A coin in an "acceptable" state is normally worth more than melt (depending on collectability) so it seems like you might gain.
I have bought a few improperly cleaned NGC slabbed coins just to get specimens with excellent details that I could not otherwise afford. It seems that there must be very few toned coins that get flagged for improper cleaning, as I am not sure I have seen even a single details graded coin that was not sparkling clean. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Yeah it's possible. But not gonna happen often. Typically my comments are made in a general sense. But there are almost always exceptions to just about anything that can be said. But exceptions do not disprove the rule.
I rarely if ever get too specific about things like that. I don't want to help make things worse by providing specific information, there are enough bad guys out there already. One skilled in the process can do the job well enough to even fool the TPGs at times. Do they fool them every single time ? No, but they do a lot. One of the things about putty though is that there are certain diagnostics, it has a "look". The surface of the putty itself will be different the surface of the surrounding metal. But if you do not have the experience or the skill to pick up on this then you will miss it and be fooled. Detecting putty is not something that is easy to do. But there is one thing that may be helpful to some. As putty ages it tends to change color, it becomes lighter (sometimes darker but usually lighter) than it was originally. This lighter color makes it easier to see. But, not much. The areas, scratches, hits, whatever, filled with the putty are generally so small that even the lighter color will be overlooked and not seen by most. Also, if a putty job is done less skillfully then there may small traces of it that were smeared on the surface of the metal surrounding the mark being filled. This makes the area that needs to be detected a bit larger so technically easier to detect, but not much. If you want to know more Google these words - puttied gold coin.
Thanks, how about silver? My brother was born in 1932 and wanted to have a 1932 buffalo nickel. I had to inform him there was no such thing. I had a 1932 quarter and decided to send it to him. Since he isn't a collector in the least, I washed it to get off surface dirt (very worn coin, maybe G) and the coin took on a very porous look. I had some white graphite in the garage and took a chance at rubbing some of this onto the surface. The appearance was improved greatly, but I doubt it lasted very long.
Yeah sure, it could be done. But I've never actually seen one that was. I'm pretty sure the reason it is not is because the time factor is much more of an issue with silver than it is with gold. With your background in chemistry if you stop and think you can probably guess why that would be. With gold, time is an issue because the putty dries out eventually and changes color making it more easily visible. But gold is a basically non-reactive metal. It tones, but nowhere near as easily as silver, (or copper). Silver on the other hand is a very reactive metal. It reacts and tones when it comes into contact with almost anything. So imagine, what would happen to the silver surrounding an area that was puttied ? It would change color, and much more quickly, thus making that area suspect and subject to close inspection. And long before the putty dried out and changed color itself, as well as making it a different color than the toned metal around it. So yeah, with skill, you could probably fool somebody by puttying a silver coin, but not for very long.
