Is, or is not, tone part of a coins grade?

I searched for this subject in an effort to cut down on my questions - but did not see it any of the recent threads. So here goes:

I've been doing some reading, and what I've learned is that technically speaking, the tone of a coin is not part of it's grade (although it has a lot to do with the ultimate value or price). The again, eye appeal is about 20% of the grade.
So my question is, when grading a coin, is it true that tone is not part of it's grade, and should I try my best to ignore it and grade accordingly - or should I take it into account?
I imagine, it's probably somewhere in the middle . . .
Thanks.

 

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yes if it adds to the eye appeal.

 

As far as I know, toning isn't part of the technical grade. But, like you already said, it often has a lot to do with how much it will sell for.
Guy~

 

Toning can affect eye-appeal positively or negatively. And eye-appeal is a component of a coin's grade, even though many believe that should not be the case. So, yes, indirectly, at least, toning can be part of a coin's grade.

That said, I believe it is best to try to grade a coin based on its technical merits first, and then go from there.

 

Depends on who you talk to.

My take on PCGS is they do little to the grade based on toning and takes mostly the technical merits. And sometimes even detract from the grade if they cannot determine how the surfaces are under the toning.

My take on NGC is they originally did the above and created the * program to show great eye appeal but later it seems that they sometimes give an unwarranted grade bump for eye appeal and give it a *.

Just my 2C and I can't back any of this up with proof.

 

It can effect price like, "well struck," "full steps," "full bell lines," "full head," and "cameo." If you like toned coins it can increase the value of a coin, but not effect grade. If you don't like toned coins toning may decrease a coin's value.

NOTE: As CrustyCoins points out, beware artificial toning. Also understand most cleaned coins tend to tone later.

Clinker

 

Those characteristics that you mentioned are designations, which are separate from grade. It is a fact of life that the major grading services take color/eye-appeal into account when grading coins. Consequently, m,any coins get a grade bump (an extra point or more) due to especially attractive color. If you look at enough coins in TPG holders you will see it for yourself.

 

And toning can be so dark that the TPGs won't grade a coin.
They are concerned that something may be hidden under the toning.
You end up with a "no opinion" and a body bag.
I've had two coins end up like that.
An 1894 Morgan which I considered XF.
A 1798 cent which I also considered XF.

 

This is a question that I asked myself the first time I saw a poop brown Morgan in an MS66 slab.

 

The definitive answer is


























































It depends.

To those of us who call tarnish by its real name: "tarnish", it absolutely affects the grade - always downwards.

To those who call it "attractive toning" it may or may not affect their preception of grade. Generally the top tier TPGs all claim that it has no affect, but it sometimes does, no matter what they say.

 

That is a fairly common misconception. The major grading companies don't typically claim that toning/eye-appeal has no effect on a coin's grade. To the contrary, this is from the PCGS website:

"Once the graders have determined the coin to be authentic and unaltered, the final step in the process is to assign a grade to the coin in question. Graders are now focusing on the characteristics of the coin such as the strength and quality of toning, strike, marks, luster, and overall eye-appeal. All these characteristics are taken into account when assigning a grade."

 

I know I'm opening up a whole 'nother can of worms here, Mark, but can you please educate me on what might go into deciding the "quality" of the toning?
Is it something systematic like 1) looking for specific colors? 2) tone spread evenly and concentrically around the coin? 3) balance between obverse and reverse? 4) uniformity of tone rather than blotches? - - because, sometimes a coin is described as having beautiful toning and I don't see it (I know I have a lot to learn).

 

Others may disagree with me, but I too have seen coins advertised as beautiful toning - they were ugly to my eye. I am not sure you can "learn" to like certain types of toning - either you do or you don't. Look at Lehighs and The Penny Lady's posts. The post some primo toned coins - some subtle and some eye-poping toning. While I like some, some I just do not like. I hesitate to say that you can learn to like that toning. What I do know is some of that toning brings very high premiums.

 

I have nothing more to add here. Eye appeal is part of grading.

 

I don't want to belabor this point (and I'm just a dumb newbie), but one specific type of toning has me wondering.
It's the kind that looks like, well, "mold" (I know that isn't part of the coin collecting lexicon, but it's the best way I can describe it). A 1918s Mercury dime on Heritage is a good example and they described it as "a smattering of mottled golden-brown patina".
Keeping in mind beauty is in the eye of the beholder, my question is, in your opinions, is that type of toning a negative in terms of grading, a positive, or neutral?
Thanks

 

You will probably get all types of answers - to me toning only has to do with eye appeal, but the others are correct I think it does play into TPG grading(not mine). Not for this questions dark black or mottled toning can be a very big negative to me. I do not like the dark black or dark brown toning that can happen to silver - I also do not like rainbow toning on silver. Now there is a subtle golden-brown toning that does appeal to me. Just my opinion.

 

"Is, or is not, tone part of a coins grade?"

Yes, to the extent it adds or subtracts from a coin's eye appeal, or to the extent it negatively effects a coin's luster (in the case of a dark/black toned coin) toning absolutely does change a coin's grade.

Understand, however, that toning affecting grade is a relatively new idea which has come into vogue in the past few decades. Prior to that most coins were graded technically (i.e. with little/no attention paid to eye appeal/toning). There are still some segments of the numismatic community that today hold this practice to a greater or lesser extent.

All of the above IMO...MIke

 

Personally, I think the eye appeal aspect should be left to the buyer of the coin (and let the prices go where they may)- I'd prefer they stick to the technical aspects and grade how well a coin has been preserved/struck. Oh well . . .

 

When I first joined Cointalk, I wrote a thread dealing with the effect that rainbow toning had on price. Although there were many dissenters in the thread, I think I made my point. Here is the link.

http://www.cointalk.com/forum/t39837/

Regarding you other questions, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Some collectors prefer pastel colors, other prefer vibrant magenta and cyan. Some like target toning others like crescent toning. Some like the toning to be even with a nice color progression and others like the originality that a mottled or variegated piece gives them. I think you are wrestling with which toning pattens and color schemes have a positive, neutral, or negative effect on eye appeal. I really think the best way to answer your question is with photos. I will post three photos of toned Jefferson Nickels. On each the toning will have a different effect on the eye appeal, one positive, one neutral, and one negative.

POSITIVE



Other than the hardcore toning haters, you would be hard pressed to find anyone that doesn't think the toning on this coin improves the eye appeal. The colors are stunning an the luster makes the jump off the coin. Additionally the coin is completely toned on both obverse and reverse.

NEUTRAL



This coin has a nice even light golden patina over both obverse and reverse. While I find it attractive, I doubt that most would think it is anymore attractive than a blast white coin. This toning would be neutral in the eyes of the grader.

NEGATIVE



The toning on this coin is an acquired taste. In other words the coin has a nice personality. In other words, it is ugly. I even dub this coin the ugly duckling in my NGC registry set. It has every trait that you don't want in toning. The pattern is mottled in areas, the color is an ugly brown with areas approaching charcoal black, and the toning mutes the luster of the coin. Frankly, how NGC still gave this thing an MS67 is beyond me. To me this coin is like scotch, I used to hate it but have developed a taste for it.

Just because a coin has toning doesn't mean it is a good thing. More often than not, toning will fall into the neutral or negative category. That is the reason why the coins that fall into the positive category are worth a premium. I hope that this helped answer some of your questions regarding toning. And if they have, my sadistic side has decided to confuse you with this question. Which category would you place this Franklin Half Dollar? Positive, Neutral, or Negative.



Have Fun!

 

Excellent! Thank you. And I learned a new word today "mottled" (love it!). And to answer your question - I would say negative (which means it's probably a positive . There are some nice colors on both sides, the colors seem to be balanced well between the obverse and reverse, the pattern is fairly concentric, BUT (and there is probably a term for this too) it looks like it has a bad paint job - a scratchy look to it. Personally I do not like it and would not buy it. What's the answer - what would PCGS or NGC think - a positive? Thanks Lehigh!