********************* Submission of Doctored Coins – Revision to NGC Rules, Procedures and Terms & Conditions Dear Authorized Member Dealer: In recent months, NGC has seen a significant increase in the number of deceptively doctored coins submitted for grading. A doctored coin is one which has been purposefully and unnaturally altered to lend the appearance of a higher grade. In order to protect the collecting public, our authorized dealer network and NGC’s own reputation, we are announcing specific rule changes and new terms and conditions to deal with doctored coins. 1. Anyone submitting a doctored coin will receive a warning letter from NGC detailing the problems with the submitted items as well as NGC’s rules, procedures, and conditions outlined in this letter. 2. Upon a second submission of doctored coins, anyone who received the initial warning letter described above, shall be subject to a 90-day suspension of their rights to submit coins to NGC. 3. Should that submitter continue to submit doctored coins following the suspension, NGC may, in its sole discretion permanently suspend all rights of submission and terminate their authorized member dealer status. Please note that pursuant to our standard Terms & Conditions you, as an authorized dealer, indemnify NGC against all claims, liability and expenses that NGC may incur in covering any claims as a result of doctored coins submitted by you which may initially evade our detection. NGC in its sole discretion may invoke such indemnification and the right to suspend and/or terminate the submitter whether or not the submitter was acting on his own behalf or on behalf of a third party in submitting doctored coins for grading and authentication. We believe you will agree with us that this new policy can only act towards the betterment of the numismatic community. Very truly yours, Steven Eichenbaum Chief Executive Officer ********************* Very interesting...IMO it's a good move on NGC's part. Puts more responsibility on the dealer who submits...my only question is if this applies only to authorized dealers or does it apply to members too?
It is an interesting letter, but a little tough on people who are submitting coins to NGC to verify if they are doctored or not...but this seems to be addressed towards dealers, so I guess they think dealers should know better.
Sheesh, that is a tough policy. Especially, as tcore stated, it can be tough for us innocents to detect.
Based on the letter I don't think it is directed to dealers only. It says flat out - " 1. Anyone submitting a doctored coin ...." And the salutation says - " Dear Authorized Member Dealer ". That seems pretty clear to me. Of course the best way to be sure is to simply ask NGC directly if it applies to members & dealers.
i dont think thats a good move. i understand they need to protect themselves. but as coins fakers get better and better, more and more coins will move beyond the ability of people to see the forgery. This puts the pressure on the people who submit to become the expert prior to submition for grading. And here i thought the TPG's were filling this role. Before anyone screams - i know people need to learn to teach themselves all things grading, and picking out obvious fakes... but at some point, fakers will move beyond the scope of most people being able to tell the differance. alot of fakers are alreayd moving into needing test that commoners dont have. I do belive NGC is moving in the right direction, i just think they are going to far. I also think that at some point down the road, they will back off this approach a bit.
This brings up another question. As time passes, a greater percentage of coins will be (1) slabbed and (2) doctored. Could the industry be noticing some sort of practical limit to the number of acceptable coins [excluding moderns] they are likely to receive? For example, the population of morgan dollars is fixed or actually declining. Every day, more of them are harshly cleaned or damaged or doctored, and more are sent to the TPGs. Unless the number sent for grading declines, it would seem natural for the percentage of unacceptable coins sent to NGC and the others to slowly increase over time.
I have at least one Morgan in an NGC slab that is AT, and it's not an old fatty, I will post pics tonight, and I'm sure I could find more if I went thru them all, but this one really stands out.......
i think th eTPG should take all the damamged coins intheir slabs back and compensatethe owners and then melt the problem coins to solve the problem
Both NGC and PCGS have now issued statements. Nice to see them present a united front. :thumb: ************** The following news release was issued today, Monday, January 28, 2008, by PCGS. PCGS Reinforces Rules for Suspected “Doctored” Coins (Santa Ana, California) – Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) is advising its authorized dealers of the existing terms and policies regarding submission of so-called “doctored” coins, and is reinforcing the application of those policies. “We’re seeing more and more coin doctoring than we’ve ever seen, and the methods used to alter the coins are more and more sophisticated,” said Ron Guth, President of PCGS, a division of Collectors Universe, Inc. (NASDAQ: CLCT). “We are constantly trying to keep up with new and sophisticated techniques, such as micro surgery with lasers and various chemical treatments to alter the surfaces of coins. You name it, and the coin doctors are trying it. We’re giving public notice to those who alter coins that we’re clamping down on them.” Guth said PCGS graders are frequently updated on what to watch for when analyzing coins submitted for certification. He compares the continuing education to combat coin doctoring and counterfeiting to anti-virus software makers who are on constant vigil against computer hackers and new viruses. In addition to close examination and scrutiny by PCGS graders, coins suspected of tampering in violation of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331, may be submitted by PCGS to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) for review to determine if U.S. law has been violated. PCGS will cooperate fully if the FBI believes there is sufficient information to warrant an investigation. “We are fighting the coin doctors who are trying to take advantage of the marketplace, deceive the public and perhaps pursue our money back guarantee.” PCGS is reminding dealers of the specific language of their Authorized Dealer Agreement regarding impaired or altered coins. The contract states in part: Dealer shall not “doctor” coins or knowingly submit to PCGS coins which have been "doctored". Coin “doctoring” involves the alteration of the appearance of a coin to attempt to increase its value, and may involve, among other things, adding substances to coins (such as, among other things, putty, wax, facial oils, petroleum jelly or varnish); treating coins with chemicals (such as, among other things, potash, sulfur, cyanide, iodine or bleach); heat treating coins in any way to alter their appearance; re-matting (“skinning”) proof gold; “tapping” and “spooning” ( i.e., physically moving surface metal to hide marks); filing rim nicks; or repairing coins (re-tooling metal). Dealer and PCGS agree that PCGS would suffer irreparable damages if Dealer were to engage in coin “doctoring” and that PCGS shall be entitled to not only compensatory damage but also preliminary and final injunctive relief for any breach of Dealer’s obligation not to “doctor” coins or knowingly to submit “doctored” coins to PCGS. Dealer agrees that in the event PCGS incurs any attorney fees and/or cost and expenses as a result of said “doctoring,” including but not limited to investigating claims of alleged “doctoring,” and engaging in legal proceedings with Dealer or any third party relating to same, PCGS shall be entitled to reimbursement of such fees and costs from Dealer. “PCGS Authorized Dealers are encouraged to review and understand the dealer agreement and to understand the scope and application of Title 18 of the U.S. Code, Section 331,” said Guth. Title 18, Section 331, involves the mutilation, diminution and falsification of coins, and states: Whoever fraudulently alters, defaces, mutilates, impairs, diminishes, falsifies, scales, or lightens any of the coins coined at the mints of the United States, or any foreign coins which are by law made current or are in actual use or circulation as money within the United States; or Whoever fraudulently possesses, passes, utters, publishes, or sells, or attempts to pass, utter, publish, or sell, or brings into the United States any such coin, knowing the same to be altered, defaced, mutilated, impaired, diminished falsified, scaled, or lightened; Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both. For additional information about PCGS, visit online at www.PCGS.com, or by e-mail at info@PCGS.com. **************
See, i think this PCGS letter is beter becuase it doesnt go so far as to permantly penalize an individual who un-knowingly sends in a doctored coin for slabbing. Yet, it DOES impose stiff penalties if it can be proven that someone did knowingly send in a doctored coin. I know it would be hard to prove, but its a step in the right direction
While NGC's language might sound harsh and overly broad, they won't be penalizing innocent parties. They are unquestionably aiming at those who doctor coins and/or knowingly submit them for those who do. Innocent bystanders have nothing to fear. This will hopefully serve as a deterrent to the bad guys and puts them on notice that their downside is not limited merely to getting a doctored coin back in a body-bag - now they will face hefty financial repercussions, as well.
INHO, I think they are making a GREAT move. Now some may ask "But what about the people that have no clue." IMO, after getting back a coin that NGC says is doctored, they might be more reluctant to send in a questionable coin, and go seek help first. Just a thought, and could be totally wrong. Thanks for sharing DJ. :thumb: Phoenix
Who was that fellow who was ATing Morgans in older holder by exposing the slabs to a sulphur rich environment, like inside a plastic bag with an incense burning, etc??? Big Scandal, here is a little about it... http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cach...coins+toning+morgans&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us Take Care Ben
