Indian Cent collection quandry (incl. '77 and '09S) - Need advice

This weekend I'm going to be looking at purchasing a number of raw Indian Cents and I must admit that I don't have a lot of knowledge in the area of avoiding counterfeits or "problem" copper (I mainly deal with nickel and silver).

The 1877 (I've been told) is in pretty worn shape. I know to look for uniform "7's", angular bottoms of the "7's", and a soft center strike ("N" and "E") of the reverse. On a coin that's pretty worn, what are the chances that it's a counterfeit? What other tell-tale signs might I look for (especially on a heavily worn coin)? I think the CDN for Good is about $240; what's a fair price for About Good, Fair, or Poor?

Other than a clear "s", what am I looking for to make sure the "S" minted coins are not counterfeit. I realize that the spark-erosion dies will create a "bubbling-effect" on the coin in some cases, but are there obvious points to look for?

I wish I had my (dopey) father's Indian cent collection (which I moronically gave him) because he cleaned all the them to make them look nice! Since he's a 1000 miles away (and besides, if he was any closer when he told me that, I'd be in jail today ), I don't have the opportunity to see what a bunch of various cleaned Indian cents might look like. I don't have any "spare" Indian cents to experiment with. What should I look for that might be unnatural for these coins, that is a sign it has been cleaned (of course, it shouldn't look "coppery")?

When grading Indian Cents, are there grading subtleties that the grading books don't point out? For instance, are there certain years that need to take in a generally weaker strike, especially when looking at the "Liberty". I'm going to use the PCGS book as my main guide for grading them.

Any other advice when examine these coins as a whole?

Thanks! If I purchase them, I'll try to be sure to provide scans on this forum.

[By the way, I'm not sure if I'm breaking any sort of etiquette or anything, but this is a cross-post from a forum on the PCGS boards. I hope that's okay.]

 

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Apparently all you have is the money to buy these coins, and lack the knowledge to properly evaluate the conditions and authenticity of the coins. If I were in your shoes and still wanted these coins, I would pay some one I trusted to accompany me to this location and use his advice at to what the coins are really worth. Not being able to do this, I believe I would pass and spend my money on something I knew something about.

One last item before I go... What is with this "dopey" name calling? In case you havent realized it, you gave your father the coins. The key word here is "gave". He is free to drill holes in them and make buttons out of them if he so chooses. They aren't yours so get over it. You know there is an old saying, and that is "the fruit don't fall far from the tree". Be a little kinder to your father, youve only got one.

 

Okay....perhaps, I appear to have been too harsh on my father and this didn't read right. My father and I have a great relationship and he constantly jokes about the cleaning even after I "browbeat" him over it. I meant my criticism of my father in very light terms, but unfortunately, through the magic of a forum it may not appear that way. You're right, I gave him the coins, they're his to do as he pleases. I should have realized what was going to happen prior to giving him that little collection since he taught me how to clean my coins with baking soda and water (when I was 9 years old and collecting Lincoln cents and Liberty nickels). I'm very passionate about the hobby and my father knows it, so he ribs me about making those Indian Cents looks shiny, whenever he gets the chance.

As far as having the money and not the brains. Uh....I'm not sure what to say, except that's why I'm writing in this forum. Short of buying wrong and having a nasty experience, I wanted to get some tips from the pros. After 30 years I do know a bit about various areas of U.S. coins, especially type and early proof stuff, but not much about copper. I was hoping you would have taken this request for advice with a more "understanding" heart and an attitude of enlightenment instead of brutal criticism. I have every intention of bringing my level of knowledge up to snuff in many more areas than I'm already familiar with and move towards being a part-time coin dealer. I feel have a leg up on many dealers I've recently seen in the business and I think I'll add some positive notes to the hobby by joining those ranks. Quite frankly every dealer starts from some where. I'd like to take advantage of lessons learned by others and gain some experience by doing a little "field work". I plan on starting from a position of being up-front and fair with my customers, not to mention being light of attitude which you don't seem to be.

 

The "Grouchologist Extrordinaire" is showing through!!

 

Welcome aboard Prethen.

I'm afraid I have to pretty much agree with Dan on his main point, which I would phrase as "Buy the book before the coin". I think his heart was both pure and understanding, and he was trying to assist you, not to brutally criticize you.

You are not talking about junk box 3-for-50¢ coins, and you simply aren't going to get enough information about them from a few postings on this type of forum to make you an instant expert.

I'm not very much into U.S. coinage, and don't ever expect to increase the size of my Indian Head collection beyond the two that I got as part of multi-coin transactions, so I can't give you any useful advice about them, except always "Buy and study the book before you buy the coin".

After you learn more about them, you may regret not having acquired this particular group, but wouldn't that be better than buying them and then regretting that you had heavily overpaid for junk? Trying to predict either outcome is gambling, and personally, I do my gambling at the crap tables in Las Vegas, not with my coin budget.

 

Indian Head Cents

You the best advice I could give you is to buy the 1877 in a slab of one of the big 3. There are many counterfeits of this coin out there and the majority of dealers can't spot a bad one.



catman

 

First the prices you are thinking about are not correct in today's market. 1877 Indians CDN bid/ask in good 435/475. 1909-S in good 240/265 and 1908-s in good 46/50.

1909-s is a commonly counterfeited coin as is the 1877. We all know that. BUT there are a number of others that are commonly cleaned/modified. Since you readily admit that you want these coins but don't have the knowledge to judge quality and authenticity - go with slabs or buy a full set from someplace like ANR, Bowers, etc.

I think you'll be surprised at the prices that you have to pay vs. what the CDN and such quote. Good luck.

 

Oops, I stand corrected on the 1877 price. I was doing it from memory (no CDN in front of me at the time) and I guess I remembered the '09S price. I agree that unless you have a bunch of experience looking at the counterfeit vs. authentic stuff it can be pretty tough to properly judge the coin. Your comments are well appreciated.

Is there any specific book on Indian Cents going over various strikes, counterfeits, grading anamolies, etc? I already have Breen, but I'm interested in a book that pays special attention to the concerns of the Indian Cent collector.

 

Yep, already got that book (I noted it above, although not by name). I love that book and I believe it was money well spent. It doesn't talk a lot about the 09S counterfeits though.

 

I glanced through it for IHC's, but didn't get into depth. I didn't realize that the 1909S was not specifically discussed. Though, I agree with you in that the purchase of this book was money well spent.

I also have the Flying Eagle and Indian Cent Die Varieties book, but that doesn't mention the 1877 or 1909S as having any varieties. My copy might be outdated, though.

 

Thank you for looking into those books (I don't have them handy here at work). I feel a tad bit vindicated, since I did a bit of research using the books I had on hand. To be honest, I'm not sure which books the above posters feel are "on subject" based on my questions, hence the reason I wanted some expert advice in lieu of such material. I can tell you first hand, I have a bit of knowledge in the 2-3-20 cent coins, and the books that are out there might tell you a bunch of trivia and what-not, but nothing beats experience of hand-on grading and seeing a lot of these coins. Sometimes it helps when a bit of advice can be given to kill some of the hard learning curve of either buying wrong or attempting to monopolize looking at dealer's stock so you can learn on the go.

 

That's the purpose of forums like this one. Hopefully, a member of the FLY-IN club will respond to this thread. They would know best which books will give you the detailed information that would help you.

Also, I think Catman had the best advice if you are looking to buy these two coins now - purchase them slabbed from one of the big 4 (although I think he said 3)

 

My favorite book for Indian Head Cents is Q.David Bower's book, "A Buyer's and Enthusiast's Guide to Flying Eagle and Indian Cents". It's hard to find - sometimes. I'd try Amazon, eBay, and a few of the used book stores.

I also have Rick Snow's attribution guides, but these concentrate on the die varieties for the various years. Great books, if you pay attention to die varieties.

There was an article in the past few years about the 1909 with added S. It dealt with the positioning of the mint mark and the ability to determine if it was a 1909 with S added. I can't find my copy of it right now. Perhaps someone else has info on it.

I like ANACs for Indian Head Cents. But that's a personal decision. Go with the company you trust.