improve ebay quality

I don't know if this is a new idea or not, but what if ebay gave financial incentives to sellers with a proven track record for fair dealing, and imposed penalties against the less scrupled ones? This would entail a revamp of the feedback system, which seems archaic. There needs to be a way of judging the quality of feedback, say by giving greater weight to feedback received from members with higher ratings, or by allowing members to give graded or scaled feedback, like on a one-to five rating system. Ebay could increase the selling fees for members with poorer records and give discounts to members with higher ratings.

 

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eBay always seemed like "a good idea." I never bought anythng there. I do not know anything about the millions of other kinds of sales that take place; for coins, the situation is grim. All I know is what people like you report.

1. Anonymity. Buyers and sellers are protected from having their identities revealed. In the real world, when you meet someone, you might never learn their name, but you can see their physical nature. In the realworld establishing a new identity is somewhat complicated. New usernames on eBay are pretty easy to come by, apparently.

2. Low opportunity cost. Selling in most other venues requires more overhead and thus is a barrier to those who will not make some investment in what they do. Advertising is usually a significant cost of a mail-order business and buying advertising means revealing yourself. For a bricks and mortar store front, the seller has an even greater investment and therefore an inherent need for longterm relationships with individuals and communitiies. None of these applies to eBay with its low cost and low risk and quick profits.

3. More basic than these is the fact that many (perhaps most) Americans are mollycoddled by a tame enterprise system where the government, the Better Business Bureau, the Chamber of Commerce, and Consumer Reports are just some of the watchdogs. Those enforcers and tattlers are needed only for those businesses that will not control their own actions as their standard operating policies. The result is that we do not take responsibility for ourselves. If we get cheated, we fall back in kindergarten mode and tell the teacher that Johnny was mean to us. When I get cheated -- and it happens -- I just never go back there. My actions are my responsibility.

4. I once got a report of a less-than-helpful coin dealer in my area. In fact, one of the founding members of the local club said he would quit if Dealer X were allowed to join. I put on workman's clothes, stopped in at Dealer X with a mixed array of commons and a couple of interesting pieces. He lived down to the expectations. I did not do a lot of shopping there over the years... but I did some. KNowing the risks, I accepted the responsibility. Over the years, also, he has become a much nicer guy. I watch him at shows and he is a dealer, which is to be expected, but he is way more toward the center of the road and has become a responsible member of the dealer community. Of course, his name was not "zippiecoins@internet.com" so basically, the free enterprise system was able to work its magic on him.

The point of 4. above is that you get report after report after report of fraud on eBay and still you go back there. Stop hitting yourself in the head with a board and your headache will go away.

Also -- bottom line -- over time, eBay, Yahoo, etc., may well be impelled to excellence by the free market. It will not come about by tattling to the teacher. The Invisible Hand of Adam Smith needs time.

 

to mmarotta--
Unfortunately the reality is that this impersonal internet is the future. There will always be shows, there may or may not be brick-and-mortar shops, but people who want to trade coins will do the great majority of their trading in venues like ebay. I see "the coin dealer" as we know him/her ceasing to exist. There will only be trader/collectors like myself who are concerned mainly with improving their own collections and meeting interesting people who share their interests (and email meetings can be just as intriquing, if not more so, than flesh-and-blood ones).

I love the romance of the coin shop. I'll never forget the first time I walked into the local nook, musty and dusty and a little scary, probably nine or ten years old, with a pocketful of loose change from my paper route, looking to buy that AG 1836 Half dollar with the x scratched across the face --pirate treasure? (I still have that coin). In traveling around the country and some little bit of the rest of the world I always make it a point to stop in at the local coin shop, and I never fail to recapture that wonderful feeling. . .

But things change. . . My, how they change. Eventually, internet trading will have to provide that kind of intrique and romance, or the hobby will be completely swallowed by the mega-monsters of coin marketing.

 

caveat emptor

to GDJMSP
I'm not sure you understand my point. I agree, if I am cheated, it is at least partially my own fault. And I am seldom cheated. I am not feeble-minded; I am not a child.

---Numismatic mass marketers prey on the weak.

Your argument suggests that it is morally appropriate to offer to sell anything at any price to anyone, with any misleading advertisement that stays within the law; it's the buyer who must beware (caveat emptor).

Some of us who sell on the internet believe that honest descriptions, honest depictions, old-fashioned fair trading, --these are the values that will save the coin-collecting hobby even in the age of the internet.

"Caveat emptor" is the slogan of the cheat, the chiseler, the liar and the thief.

 

Andy, I dont think GD is suggesting anything is "morally appropriate". I think he is just saying that overall it is the buyers responsibility. No matter what is in place someone will always be there to take advantage of someone else. If we go by the morally appropriate sayng then cars are not morally represented, gas inst either. Even the price of milk isnt. There are people out that may come to you with a hand full of melt coins. You tell them it's only worth melt and they will say you are trying to rip them off of their treasure...go figure. It can also work the other way.

 

cush--I really don't want to discuss market ethics, which is an oxymoron anyway. Let's deal with the reality: I sell coins on ebay to a mass market--a worldwide market. The buyer is protected by the reputation of the institution, ebay, which wouldn't last a single day if there weren't enough honest sellers in it to provide the reputation. Individual sellers may be crooked or they may not be; indeed it IS the buyer's responsibility to discern the difference.

If I offer melt coins and provide touched-up photos and glossy descriptions, if I attribute overblown grades to those coins and sell them to a trusting, novice collector who then decides the world is injust and all coin sellers are crooks--don't you think the institution, ebay, even in its own self- interest, ought to provide me a penalty? Should they not encourage me to do the opposite?

Without an incentive to be honest, other than the fundamentally irrational control of one's own conscience, Adam Smith's free market par excellence, ebay, would be even more of a jungle. The fact remains, there are honest sellers, good people, conscientious folks, trying to find a place there for themselves. And it isn't easy. --andy

 

I agree 100% with the premise: electronic sales are a reality. That is the reason why I look to OTHER venues such as VCOINS. I regard this as a "trusted" marketplace. The dealers there are pretty much the ones we know from The Celator. They have built their reputations.

There are other trusted markets.

eBay is not one of them. You can say "should" all you want, but the reality is that it is not. We can say "maybe" and we can even say "maybe soon" but the reality is that from my perspective honest sellers are found in higher proportions on "rings" and other constructions where someone has an ownership stake in the outcome.

 

GD.-- These psychological and philosophical ruminations are fascinating but lead away from the point. I think the fact is that ebay will continue to gain more and more of the coin market. (I would love to see if there are any figures on this--but I suppose since most of the market is "underground" and essentially unregulated, only estimates could be made.) And I think that ebay's growing monopoly leads to a fundamental change in the structure of the market, with the traditional "dealer" no longer determining values.

The collector is beginning to dominate on ebay. Dealers have to compete with bargain-hunters for their raw material. Collectors are no longer at the mercy of dealers when they dispose of unwanted material--now hey can trade it off easily at fair value, eliminating the "middleman", if you will. Now collectors like myself can finance their collections to once-undreamed-of levels with some basic marketing schemes of their own (like stressing fair pricing and honest grading). I think this is why I"m hearing such negativity from the traditionalists in this forum--they are scared to death of the changes that are overtaking them. I think traditional dealers dont want to see improvements made to the ebay system because they fear any improvements that will favor the consumer,--the collector.
--andy

 

I had to put my two cents into this one. When did dealers dominate Ebay? The vast majority of "dealers" have never used Ebay.

Dealers don't want to see Ebay improved? EVERYONE wants to see better selling venues. Whether this is a show, store, or internet. Most dealers (myself) included don't use Ebay because of the association. There are MANY scammers still involved. Personally I have no desire to be associated with these individuals.

Bargain Hunters? Another post here shows state quarters selling for vastly more than any dealers price. A quick search through the modern market on Ebay shows many coins selling for far more than any price found in the numismatic ads of the major magazines.

Now I realize that most members here have a fascination with Ebay, and while that is all fine and good, there are other acceptable avenues. Limiting yourself only accomplishes that. The vast majority of "YOU" keep saying how great the bargains are with one breath, and how much you can get for your coins with the next breath. Am I the only one that sees that this statement makes no sense. You can't have it both ways.

You ask for numbers or market share. Here is the question that should be asked. If the theme for Ebay is "buyer beware" why shop there? If Walmart had a sign hanging above the door that stated buyer beware how much would their business suffer?

GDJMSP is correct. Only the buyer can keep himself from being taken advantage of.
MMAROTTA is correct. A dealer that has a vested interest in the hobby will take care of his customers.

The first part of being a well informed buyer is knowing yourself. Don't believe the "myths" because everyone claims them to be real.

Many threads here discuss the fakes being sold on Ebay, along with the garbage slabs. Yet the group as a whole promotes Ebay as the be all, end all for collectors. Ask yourself this: How many suffer because of their bargain hunting? How many garbage slabs are sold to those collectors? How many cleaned, whizzed, buffed, over graded coins are sold to those collectors? Finally, if you believe that many get ripped off, how do you recommend it others?

While it is true that a buyer has to be responsible for themselves, it is also the responsibility of Dealers and knowledgeable collectors to provide credible and honest advice, along with assistance.

 

Thanks for making the point. I notice this often with collectors who gloat over a bargain price granted to them by a dealer or won on the market. For that to happen, the previous collector had to take a hit. Fair enough, perhaps, that being the reality of the market, but it does say to me that when you go to sell your material, yours will be the fodder for someone else's cash cow.

I think that one way to resolve the apparent contradiction is that the great sell and the wonderful buy come at different times and places. Arbitrage is the essence of trade and with eBay, everyone is looking to "rationalize the market" toward their own profit.

That game is fun and it justifies itself. Over on rec.collecting.coins, one of the regulars, a guy from Australia, said that _ANY_ bargaining is demeaning, like begging, even like shoplifting. He admits that he does discuss price on occasion -- and no one pursued that exception with him -- but basically, he follows a "gentleman's code of honor" and wither buys what is offered at the price or does not. I am not that severe in my 18th Century English Manor Morals being a big fan of the Ferengi Way of Life, but basically, I do not bargain, either. I go to conventions or coin shops and I either buy or do not, though sometimes, I admit, I do discuss the factors in a price, which discussion, however oblique, might hear the dealer offer a lower price.

However, I have also offered MORE for a coin than was asked. If the dealer can round down, I can round up.

 

I can't believe that this thread has sat this long without my 2 cents

Most people here know my feelings on the eBay situation and also know that eBay is the mainstay of my business. I sell and buy on eBay so I have a perspective of both sides.

First of all, getting back to the OP, eBay should not be responsible for rewarding honest behavior by sellers. Honesty should be expected and the rewards for honesty are satisfied customers and repeat business. That said, eBay is trying to identify and take action against the fraudulent sellers. That's the basis of the partnership between eBay and the ANA. Although the process from the point that an auction/seller is reported to the actual action taken by eBay is currently a little convoluted and time-consuming, I think it's a great start. As with anything of importance, patience is a virtue.

This forum and many others have made it clear how important it is for buyers to educate themselves before buying (not only on eBay but any sight-unseen item). There are many red flags for buyers which have been discussed in many different threads. Auctions that are private, sellers with private feedback, a lot of negatives or neutrals, poor pictures, some seller locations, and many others need to be watched. There are many honest and forthright sellers on eBay that truly enhance the hobby. Unfortunately, it's the scammers that get all the publicity and give the venue a bad name.

Forums like this one that help to educate buyers and sellers alike are invaluable. Any auction or item that you are interested in that you are unsure of can be posted here, and buyers can make informed decisions before placing a bid.

As I have said a thousand times, the removal of the scammers on eBay hinges on their auctions being reported as many times as it takes and the interest of collectors to make eBay the positive venue that it has the potential to be. We all have a responsibility here to help other collectors. This requires some level of active participation on everyone's part. Some of us are just more consumed and obsessed by this issue than others

 

I always, well, ok, 90% of the ime I see a bogus auction I send a email to them. Some peple really get offended, but ohhh well.

This guy wont respond to my emails..... I said,
" Hmm, I wonder how PCGS would grade one of your many, PR70 coins?"

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3932456233&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT

 

The auctions need to be reported at this link for eBay to be made aware of any problems:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html
If you click on the link and go to the bottom of the page, you'll see Report (link). Click on this and follow the instructions.

 

The guy answered my recent email with a "?"...... that is all he could say. I asked who graded these coins, and if he needed glasses..... I also pointed out the coin he listed as, ms70 had surface marks on it, making it impossible to grade MS70..... lets see how he responds.

 

I might suggest that those organisms that are well-adapted to a niche prosper -- until the niche changes. On the other hand, life is harder for generalists, but they survive change.

I recognize you here as susanlynn and you post your ANA member number. Really, however, you have no "reality" to me. That, I think, is an important point. As I said about Josh and Ben, they have a presence in the hobby. I know them from VCOINS and I have met them at conventions. (If you goto CoinPeople.Com -- now inactive, but available -- you can find a snapshot I took of them in my Album.) The anonymity of sellers and buyers on eBay opens the door to fraud.

 

You are right in that eBay (and on-line sales in general) allow for anonymity that can promote fraud. This does not mean that it definitely will. We have done what we can for our customers to eliminate the anonymity by enclosing personal notes with every purchase and our phone number and address are included. We also have compiled information about ourselves on our website. A picture or snapshot does not eliminate the anonymous fraud factor. Any of the people who you feel that you know have the ability to create an anonymous on-line ID and have the ability to deal fraudulently without it being attached to them. I am not saying that they would do this, I am just saying that it is possible. Meeting someone and knowing someone are two entirely different things. And, quite frankly, anonymous or not, a seller is either ethical and honest or not. Being known or not known has nothing to do with it.