If Coin Dealers NEVER Existed.......

I've been doing my share of reading and commenting on some recent threads about coin dealers and honestly I'm not real happy about what I read.
You see coin dealers are being ripped pretty hard in senseless, blanket statements. LOTS of people just spouting off about how ALL dealers are like used car salesman, pawn shops etc.

Not that there isn't a lot of truth in some of the statements and I've seen some equally fair statements made as well but overall I'd have to say there is a VERY negative view of coin dealers. Would that be a fair assessment for anyone that has read other threads concerning dealers?

Now, THAT in mind can anyone tell me where this hobby would be if there were NEVER any coin dealers? For you "youngsters" the hobby goes back WAY past the internet. Once upon a time there was no internet.

We couldn't just pop on line, go to a forum or an ebay and either discuss or buy coins. That was once upon a time of course now you can do it all.

NOW you can do that but do you ever think about how this happens? Do you ever think about where a lot of the coins come from? Here's a very simple answer. A LOT of it still comes from.................Coin shops!

I work in a shop. There are many members here who are dealers. The coins we procure come from many places. Some buy from other dealers if they have a buyer. Others buy collections and that ties up a lot of money yet they buy them to offer to the "coin collecting masses".
Think it's easy? Then try it yourself because I'll guarantee it's not. I work in a shop as I said. I wouldn't eat if I owned one as I just don't have that kind of money.
Opening a shop or even an online store costs a lot of money and involves a lot of risk. I reckon a few members can back me up on this if they feel so inclined.

Now in a store like the one I work at we occasionally make a good "hit". I won't deny it as it happens. Why would it happen? Well, because we buy stuff and have the money to do it basically.
Do I search everything we buy? Gimme a break. Not enough hours in the day folks. Has it been searched in the past? Most likely.

I "search" if we buy bulk and I see a lot of really worn coins basically. Sure enough I found a 16-D Mercury dime last year in a large batch of silver dimes that I had run through the counter. I posted about it here on CT as a matter of fact.

Does that make us a rip off because we didn't resell it as junk silver? Absolutely not. I went with my gut feeling to search the coins. My boss made good money.

The people that sold us the dimes could have EASILY picked up ANY of the various reference books and magazines that we sell, searched the coins and made a lot more money. The dime was in a bag with about 900 others when we bought it. As a lifelong collector I would have searched it but they didn't.

So I'm rambling and I'll ramble a bit more. We have people come in every day to sell coins. Most have no clue yet they'll ask me questions like "what's a really good penny? (CENT). I'll suggest they buy a book and do some research. Guess what? 99% DON'T.

If it's a small lot and I spot a better date we pay more. If not I run them through the counter and we pay them. I might check them later if I see the "wear patterns". Seriously doesn't happen often though. I'm sure we've sold wheats in bulk, for instance, and had some people make some good finds. Good for them I say.

So back to the title of my thread.

If Coin Dealers NEVER Existed.....

Do you think we'd be seeing scarce coins come out ot the woodwork as it were?

The answer is simple here. NO you wouldn't.

Flame dealers all you want but there are a lot of people out there that have coins passed down, have no interest, will do no research but will sell in a heartbeat. These people tend to go to established coin shops and we buy them.

It's nothing new. In fact, it's really old.

 

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Clembo, Great post. I saw this thread title, from the main page, and The first thing I thought about doing was opening up the thread and telling everyone exactly what you said. Not ALL coin dealers are bad. Sure some are, I've had my run ins. But there are just as many good ones.
There are a lot of people out there that call dealers bad people because they all lowball and over grade.
I can guarantee half of them will post coins on ebay int eh future and be generous in their grading because the next grade up is an extra 20 or 30 dollars. It happens, whether people want to admit it or not.

 

Good post!

I just talked about some good dealers I met at the Baltimore show...in another thread. It's great when you can find a dealer you trust and with whom you can develop a partnership. I think personality has a lot to do with it...some people click and others don't.

 

Clembo, many collectors are true amateurs. . . in love of coins for the pure sport/joy of it. So they may have a tough time seeing that others are interested in "mere" profit.

In my book, dealers deserve respect when they do a good job and earn it. I have met many great dealers. But I'm always fearful of the not-so-decent dealer.

 

I have coin dealers I like, and coin dealers I hate. I have also gotten better about which ebay lots to choose from. I simply avoid the bad dealers and lots, and give my business to the ones that are good or will work with my budget. It's just common sense. Grouping all dealers into one lump is just as unfair as segregation was back in the 50's and 60's IMO. I think the problem is too many of today's younger generation were never taught how to fish. Fishing requires one to slow down and be patient. If you get in a hurry, you'll never land anything better than a shoe.

 

:thumb:

Now, this I understand, and agree with.

 

Great post Clembo. I have to say from my experience there are some dealers I've met that were terrible, rude, dishonest people, but that's life, there are, in general, going to be people like that everywhere. And dealers like that you should simply avoid.

But, the majority of dealers I've done business with were fair, and in general seemed like pretty nice people. And there were a few that were very honest, and very nice.

Now everyone's experiences are different, but from my experiences, I have a pretty positive view of coin dealers.

 

Great post Clembo, a needed perspective for all collectors. Having been collecting for well over 50 years I have seen just about every type of dealer there is. In the late 1950's there were a number of coin dealers in the city where I lived. One of them clearly was not interested in younger customers. That was his choice, at least I had other options.

Today with the internet we have the ability to shop across the world. I think I find about the same percentage of dealers, good to bad, that I experienced those many years ago. Just did the math, about 14-15% of my local dealers back then I just wasn't able to work with. It didn't work for both the dealer and for me. That percentage seems fairly reasonable from my experiences in todays world.

Note that the percentage quoted leaves 85% of dealers that are good to work with. An overwhelming percentage. I am always able to find what I am looking for, and always able to find a good dealer to work with.

Here comes the fine print. Your experience may differ, offer void where prohibited by law, see your dealer for details...

 

I think many people who bash dealers have no real understanding of what it is like to be on the dealers side of the counter. And as for the good dealer/ bad dealer bit, some of those "bad dealers" may just be personality conflict problems. I've known dealers that in my opinion were "terrible, rude, dishonest people," but I've also known other collectors who get along with them fine and who consider them to be great people. (and those other collectors are getting good coins and decent deals). So that dealer and I just don't get along, maybe it's him, maybe its me. If he doesn't like me then his attitude would refect that and then I wouldn't like him.

The dealer serves one very important function. He is a clearinghouse fo coins and collections. As mentioned the internet is very new. In the days before the internet if here were no dealers where would you get your coins? Think about it. If you could only get your coins for your collection from those fellow collectors you knew who you did NOT meet through the net or at coin shows (no dealers, no coin shows) what would your collection be like? And when you were through collecting who would you sell your collection to? No net, no ebay, no dealers, no coin shows, the only choice is whatever collectors you know locally or maybe in your local coin club. How many of them are going to step up and buy your collection? Why would they they don't need a lot of it. They might want a select few pieces but then what do you do with the reat?

That's why dealers are needed, to provide that clearinghouse, to buy those items that they don't need and then offer them to others. To be that source for items that you haven't been able to find locally, and to move itms from one location where they are not desired to a dealer in another area where they are more desired.

What if there were no dealers? What if there were no grocery stores. The farmers are still raising produce and meat and you still want to eat, but can you imagine the problems if every person had to deal individually with each producer and vice versa? You have to have the middlemen, the distributors, the jobbers, the retailers etc. to run smoothly and efficiently.

 

Good post.

I'll do a response straight to the title.


If they didn't exist, the world would not be where it's at today with coins. We need facilitators and that's the bottom line. The public sadly cannot be trusted with the competancy that these 30+ year vets have worked up. They just can't. So that's my answer. We need them!!

 

I seldom read long post but tried to read all this one. The reason is I too realize that there are great, good, poor, bad dealers since they too are people and that is how people come. With a coin dealer they too are like many buisnesses that could or do start out great but many fall to lower standards later. As an example of this is a coin store I USED to frequent since it was near where I worked. For many years they were really great since they knew me I guess. Then they sold to someone else that turned it into a real mess for prices, quality and store manners. This is sometimes common in many buisnesses as they grow and hire new employees that may or may not really care but just want a job.
I go to many coin shows and there too, I've run into dealers that treat people horribly and others are like part of your family although that too may not be to good. I've actually heard dealers at a coin show say things like if your not buying, please move on so others can see my coins. Other dealers say have a seat you look tired.
People are just people and dealers are just people. And as already mentioned the customers too are just people and many of them too have an attitude.

 

I think that about says it all. Clembo knows I stand behind him on this one, so no need to elaborate. As far as where would the coin hobby be without coin dealers. Well, it would almost certainly not exist. There might be the few who trade among themselves, but that would hardly keep the hobby above ground. You could buy from the mint or collect pocket change, which I think is one in the same, but that would be a pretty limited hobby experience.
Guy~

 

you are close. i think that 30 years ago, they might have been needed. in today's internet age, they are becoming more obsoltete. lots of "dealers" of everything are going this way. car dealers too. i will NEVER buy a car from a dealer. i have to pay lots extra tax, and i get jerked around no matter how nice the guy. i just laugh when i see a thread like this. i am no pro collector, and i dont like dealers. they arent all bad, but ill go ahead and keep my guard up with all of them. if they find someone to buy their coins, great for them. just know that it wont be me. i have the internet, and i have the ability to shop around.

even here in the open listing section, when i see something for sale and click on it, then realize its a dealer, i just hit back. i dont support dealers. id rather deal with another collector who isnt out to squeeze me out of every hard earned dollar i have. its the only free market solution. dont like someone? dont buy from them.

 

true, but let's be realistic here. dealers will never be "phased" out. there will always be shows. not everyone in the gen. public uses the internet nor likes to do their shopping on it. there are still a great number of people who like going into shops, showrooms, etc. just to feel that comradery.

 

I have to laugh when I see something like that. Do you know WHY that collector is selling it to you directly? Because HE is trying to squeeze every hard earned dollar he can get out of it. The exact same thing the dealer is trying to do.

 

And that's a big part of making the profit. Taking advantage of ignorant people. Which essentially removes wealth from families. The same as what the big banks do. People still ask for more credit cards too don't they?
Which is fine I suppose. It's the responsibility of the collector to document what they have. A fool and his money, you know?

While I'm the last person who wants to defend the incompetent masses, who are too lazy to read concerning anything in their lives, it's hard to say, "YAY! for the dealers." I suppose they do earn some of it for spending all the money and taking the risk to be in the position to take advantage of the deal....

The problem with coin dealers is that second word in their title. How many people here love car 'dealers'? Do you have a favorite one? When every time you go there, what you own is junk and what they have is pure gold?
It's hard to go to a car dealer and enjoy that experience. Being offered $4k for your trade in when they plan on turning around and selling your vehicle for $8500. Having to fight for every penny. Almost no difference here.

Regardless of how much profit anybody thinks they're 'entitled to' for owning a business, 100% profits or much more at the consumer's expense (and don't say it doesn't happen regularly) is going to leave a bad taste in people's mouths. Why should that be a surprise? Whether it was fair or unfair. Be it on purpose or by accident.

I guess you can't worry about every little thing but I don't even want to get into grading and what's been cleaned or not. In my experience anyway.
Although I'll admit, complete blanket statments concerning this, (some that I have made), have been unfair.
It's impossible to come up with a hard, factual number of how many bad dealers are out there or to what extent one would be defined. They've done good. They've done bad.
So have the big banks in this country. But people don't have a love affair with them over the good they've done.

 

I don't agree. It's not the same. The collector has every right to sell something as the dealer does. Only the collector has no overhead and can sell CHEAPER while still getting more for their stuff.

Instead of attempting to sell to a dealer who wants to pay them 50% of the collections real value, it would make more sense to sell it themselves on the open market asking for between 70 to 100% of the collections real value. The collector generally is not asking the same as the dealer and would be easier to negotiate with.

Now the potential buyer can buy from the dealer for 100 to 110+% of a coins value or buy from the collector for maybe between 70 to 100% of it's value. To me, it looks like win-win for the collector and buyer, cutting the dealer out. Same as buying cars. An age old rule.

The only problem buyers and sellers have is finding each other and lack of service after the sale. Fortunately for dealers.

 

Well in the other thread I only saw one or two who did not like coin dealers. Me - I like them and I know there are good and bad dealers. Same with collectors(good and bad) - granted you could sell to another collector and maybe recoup a larger percentage of your money(or maybe even all of it). The deal is it only takes one bad collector to ruin that - me when I went to sell I looked on line at auctions and what dealers sold it for. Yep - could have made a few more dollars - assuming the coins sold at previous auction prices and I did not have ebay issues. I skipped the hassle and sold to the dealer. Let him worry about them and make a profit - I already had my profit with out any worries.

 

In a perfect world that might be possibile. Buying from a collector is like buying a car off the side of the road. It might be a lemon and if it is what are you going to do about it? Not much, you own it now...You dont really have a way to research this collector other then to ask around about them. With dealers you can use the internet, and places like this, to read actual customer reviews (good and bad) about the person you are dealing with.

Personally our shop offers a lifetime authenticity guarantee on anything we sell graded or not. We also make sure to fully disclose everything we can about the coin you are buying. If I think it has been cleaned I'll tell you before I sell it to you. Most any dealer worth their salt is going to do something like this. Is the average collector going to do this??? Are they going to know better??