I wanna run away from rainbows!

I used to think it would be cool to get some rainbow toned morgans and other toned coins but now I just wanna run away from toned coins for fear that I might be buying an AT and pretty much be throwing my $$$ away....YIKES!

 

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But the pot of gold can be found under the rainbows.

 

Very true!

 

I guess that is always a fear to get a AT Morgan but I find them so attractive that I think I will be just be very cautious when buying. Can't stop buying them....

 

But I also get what he was saying. Way to many 'bows to all natural ocuring

 

There's no reason to run away from them. Just get used to what a typical one looks like and know what they go for. A truly monster toned coin normally gets bid up into the 100s to thousands of dollars. If you're picking one up for 20-30 bucks, you can assume it's AT.

There's been a lot of discussion on here about NT vs. AT. Do a search. You'll probably find it to be interesting and learn a lot.

 

but just cause a coin sells for 100's to thousands doesn't mean it's NT does it?

 

The vast majority of the time it will mean it's NT. Especially if it resides in a TPG service slab such as PCGS or NGC. They won't slab anything that's even somewhat questionable. If you stick with slabs, you should be safe 99% of the time.
Toning experts that are willing to pay big money for a coin are not going to blow money like that on a doctored/painted coin. They bring good money when they're real, in many cases because they're rare. NT Morgans are not rare. NT Peace dollars are very rare. Many proof coins have toned nicely over the years naturally. They're pretty common. Franklin halves rarely exhibit NT. I'd say they're relatively rare. True, NT rainbow colored Mercury dimes are rare.

You should know all this when you're browsing auctions.

Also, look at the colors. Most bag toned coins have a natural transition from blue on the outer edge to magenta to almost an orange with normally like a tan to light rust colored leading edge around where the other coin overlapped it. The normal pattern is very common.

Any loose coins with super bright easter egg colors, perfect target toning, bubbles, a burnt smell, or just a mass of wild colors on both front and back should be automatically suspect. If somebody has something really special, most would want to submit it to NGC to try to get the star designation so it would stand out. If they haven't submitted it, you have to ask why not??

 

Buy them certified then, It doesn't guarantee that they aren't artifically toned but reduces the odds and they are in a slab.

 

nice comeback

 

I'm not the best at just reading about NT coins vs. AT coins
I do better with pictures
I wonder if it would be possible to make a sticky about how to tell NT tones and AT toned coins I just think it would help out alot of of newbies to toned coins whether your new to coin collecting or an oldbie but new to toned examples

 

This is good advice. I have many years and thousands of dollars invested in toned coins and I still don't ever purchase raw rainbow toned coins. The risk is just too high. Although there are some AT slabbed coins, the fact that they are in an NGC/PCGS holder will ensure that you will be able to resell the coin without losing a significant portion of your initial investment.

Until you have more experience, you should consider all NGC & PCGS graded coins as NT. I don't think you should run away from rainbow toned coins if you like them simply because you are worried they might be AT. Besides, if you are in doubt, you have the wonderfully knowledgeable members of Cointalk to assist you before you pull the trigger to buy a toned coin.

Hopefully a photo of a beautifully toned Morgan Dollar will bring you back. Here is a pretty one.



This coin has all of the classic indicators of an NT Morgan Dollar. First look at the color progression. Repeating patterns of yellow-magenta-cyan. The pattern is typical of crescent bag toning caused by this coin lying on another coin. The untoned portion of the obverse is where the other coin prevented this coin from contacing the toning source which is the canvas bag. Notice how the colors in the recesses of the obverse details are different in color than the high points. This is a very strong indicator of air transfer toning and is all buy impossible to duplicate via heat or chemicals. On the lighter toned areas, note that the lettering and stars do not show the same color as the fields surrounding them. Yet another indicator of NT. Lastly, observe that the colors seem very deep and bonded to the coin. There is no appearance of the colors floating on the surface.

To be honest, the scariest part of collecting rainbow toned coins is not the risk of AT, it is the ridiculous price that some of the coins achieve. I have seen rainbow toned coins sell in excess of 50X wholesale value. I personally have paid over 30X wholesale value for a rainbow toned coin.

For example, checkout the 1887-P NGC MS65* for sale for $4500 on Island's website.

http://islandcoins.com/newps.htm

That is just stupid.

 

I know it is not very nice to refer to threads on another forum, but I think this group of threads, if read carefully, and more than once, could provide more knowledge on AT/NT decision making than any other written material. It also would help to see thousands of slabbed highly toned coins, but remember that many AT coins probably have been slabbed years ago before the increase in questionable color returns from the the TPG of late.
I have read these and printed them out, and tried to practice taking a coin through the progressions , but it is time consuming and somewhat difficult, but if you read and practice, you can do very well. I have said before that AT and NT can't be positively identified when done by a highly skilled doctor, but these will help, especially on the lesser skilled doctors.

Jim


http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=304983

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=708296

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=708592

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=716279
if you only read one, do this one for the correct progression of colors through each stage of thin film deposit causing the toning.

 

Collecting toners is full of peril if you don't have the requisite experience (and still dangerous even if you do).

They sure are pretty though.

 

It's a learning process, Once you have viewed a few hundred you will be able to recognize what is accepted as NT vs. AT. Go to shows and look at slabbed examples. Go to auctions and look at more.

Read the post on the PCGS forums listed above and eventually you won't have to run you can stay and enjoy the show.

Here is a link to a toned silver Rosy set I just photographed which would be a good start: http://becokacoins.com/Customer_Sanction_II.cfm

 

While this type toning is a personal taste I agree some of these coins are beauties. Personally not my taste - but I always go out of my way to look at them. And I think pictures do not do some justice - you just have to see them in hand.

 

OMG! SO nice....

 

Wow! That's gotta be a 1 in a million coin. I'd hate to see what that goes for! To the OP, notice how the reverse is much lighter and different than the obverse. Here is a very rare coin that is completely toned but you can tell hasn't been plastered front and back with the same exact pattern by a coin doctor. Many of the details would be extremely difficult, if not impossible to replicate.

Not to mention it's in an NGC slab. Notice this isn't selling loose in an ebay auction!

It also probably got bumped from a 66 up to a 67 because of the toning and was given the elusive, coveted, but much deserved star.

NGC lists a 67 at $68. This one would probably sell between 500-1000 pretty easily. Excellent example. Maybe the coolest Merc I've ever seen.

Edit: I was wrong. They want $1400 for it. They're waiting for someone with deep pockets. It seems a little extreme to me but they can ask whatever they want. They can say go find another one.

 

While I agree that coin is nice, I don't consider it even in the top tier of toned Mercury Dimes. To give you an idea of how nice a Mercury dime can look, take a look at these coins. The first is a 1939-D PCGS MS69 FB that sold on Heritage in 2001. That's right, I said MS69 FB. Keep in mind that this photo is 8 years old and imagine what this coin would look like with a current professional photograph: MINDBlOWING!



The second coin is also a 1939-D PCGS MS68 FB owned by TomB from the NGC forum. Tom has one of the most informative websites I know of about toning. Anyone interested in eye appealing toned coins should visit his website and checkout his Mercury Dime.

http://www.ivyleaguecoin.com/gallery.html

I have linked his site before and should point out that his sections on the toning premium and the science of toning are outstanding.

I think that you initial instinct about the price of this coin was correct. I can see it easily selling for $500-$1000, but the $1400 price tag is way overpriced IMO. As you pointed out, they do have the right to list it at any price they want. After all, they only need one collector to decide it is actually worth $1400 and they will make a huge profit.

I love Island's website and have bought several coins from them over the years. However, I don't always agree that their photos are a true representation of the coin's actual appearance. I don't think they do it deceptively, I blame their setup. Everything they photograph seems to have a bright orange hue to it. Here are some examples.




Based on the color balance of what I have seen in relation to my photos, I will try to manipulate the photo of their Mercury Dime in order to predict what it will actually look like. With a hue correction of +10 and a saturation correction of -20, the resultant image would look like this.



While I agree this is a very attractive coin, I am just trying to point out some of the perils involved in buying toned coins via photographs. IMO, every effort should be taken to attempt to predict what the actual appearance of the coin will look like based on the photos. I can come very close with Heritage, close with DLRC and Island, but most e-bayers are a total shot in the dark.

My guess is that almost everybody who sees Island's photo of that Mercury will say "WOW". The problem is will they still say WOW once they actually see the coin. My prediction is that the coin looks much more like the second photo than the first. The other method of overcoming photo discrepancies (enhancements) is to only buy coins with a return policy. I prefer to do as much as I can to avoid returning coins and the disappointment that usually accompanies it.

 

I agree 100%. Be careful with Island Coins' photos.