How Worn Can A Die Be and Still Strike MS Coins?

Most grade by visual appeal making deductions for what appear to be blemishes, but what about chips, cracks, weak strike and deteriorated die doubling. Are those considered when giving grade? What if they are distracting to the eye? Can or should they be graded as a high MS?

 

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You can have a MS60, mint state, but an ugly coin.

 

Because that is the way that it left the mint. MS has nothing to do with the quality of the strike or state of the dies until you get to the higher grades of MS where eye appeal becomes a major factor.

 

Up until it literally can't strike an image on a metal disk any longer.

 

Every coin ever struck was Mint State until it wasn't.

 

Using this analogy, a coin is Mint State 70 before it leaves the coining chamber and then gains deductions for the bumps and bruises it gains before it leaves the mint. True? No matter how worn the dies are. Correct? No?

 

Not true. A Morgan with a very weak strike that was hand plucked and transported to PCGS via a DeLorean today would not get a 70. Similar to error coins like laminations or planet flaws etc. Even die cracks and heavy polishing on an otherwise 70 could negate the grade. That wasn't the question though. The question was at what point die wear causes coins to not be MS, not MS70. That's a whole different animal of a question.

 

Ok, so where is the line in the sand? 66? 68?

 

Depends what series you are talking about. A MS 66 Barber is a completely different animal than a MS 66 ASE for example. There's not going to be one magic grade across all series

 

Yes, the mint does everything in their power to reduce the said errors.
Yet, they were still made and released.
The error may not have been intended, but overuse of a die is on purpose. If the coin was not circulated it is Mint State.
Contact by the public determines the grade.

 

A Twinkie with cream flowing out the side would be pulled from going into a package for sale too but it's still a Twinkie. The mint doesn't pull them because they wouldn't grade well enough, it's just quality control in their eyes but errors can and are still MS coins until something destroys them or handling lowers their grade. MS coins are just coins that don't show wear and tear from circulation or handling.

 

I would in the same way I would say a misshaped Twix is still a Twix even though it would never leave the factory if caught. MS is a grade to me, not a fits the generic mold for general commerce designation.

 

Late MDS / early LDS dies get the highest grades. This is because new dies don't produce much luster, and luster is the most important quality in achieving a high grade on common coins. Luster happens because as a die is used to strike coins, the coin metal moves outward radially, imparting a small amount of wear on the die for each strike. Eventually this movement causes flow lines in the die, and those flow lines are then struck onto the surface of the coin. The flow lines are the reason for the luster. LDS /VLDS coins can have booming luster and also get high grades, but at some point the mushy details start to take away eye appeal, and this limits the ultimate grade level.

I go through a lot of BU rolls, and occasionally I run across VEDS coins, ie ones that were struck from brand new dies with almost no striking wear. These coins are very "flat" looking, with lots of small imperfections in the fields, and very sharp edges to the devices. I love this look, and prize these VEDS coins above all others, but if I sent them in for grading they would not achieve high grades because they have almost no luster. They are almost like proofs in appearance, but without the benefit of the dies having their imperfections polished-out.

 

The majority of errors are still coins and two of those three could be redeemed for a new quarter and the triple struck very likely be spent. If you have 70 percent of a dollar it's still a dollar and can be redeemed as one.

Another example would be off struck coins. Those are errors and many of those circulated.

 

Show me the discussions. Because they are wrong.

 

This thought first arose as a joke I told myself, but in a way it makes sense: why not have MS numbers under 60? A MS 45 would be an "as struck" coin with the details of an XF 45. Might be some confusion until people got used to it, but all change involves some disruption.