Hone your grading skills -- matron head large cent

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Leadfoot, Jun 10, 2009.

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  1. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    Please guess the grade that NGC assigned to this coin, and please explain how you arrived at your guess:

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    [​IMG]

    Have fun...Mike
     
    Leadfoot, Jun 10, 2009
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  3. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    p.s. the photos show some scuffing of the slabs, more prominent in the shot of the reverse.
     
    Leadfoot, Jun 10, 2009
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  4. the_man12

    the_man12 Amateur Photographer

    vf20 nice coin and nice pics!
     
    the_man12, Jun 10, 2009
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  5. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    Oh, I know nothing of large cents!
    Just based on the details, I can see on the coin, I'd say VF25-30. Some nice deep scratches on it, keeping it from EF, IMO, and the hair for the most part is in good deatil
    Okay, I'll say VF30
     
    tmoneyeagles, Jun 10, 2009
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  6. rlm's cents

    rlm's cents Numismatist

    Not that I know waht I am saying , but because of that scratch, F-15.
     
    rlm's cents, Jun 10, 2009
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  7. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    Alright Mike,

    I am going to venture out of my comfort zone and take a whack at this. Please remember that I know absolutely nothing about early coppers.

    It has to be in the VF grades, but which one. The reverse lettering looks weakly struck. On the obverse, there is some blending of the hair cords which could be related to a weak strike, but the stars are mostly flat due to wear. The leaves look pretty good on the reverse and there is significant hair detail remaining. If the hair cords were not blended, I would give it VF35, as it is, I am going to guess

    VF30
     
    Lehigh96, Jun 10, 2009
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  8. Lehigh96

    Lehigh96 Toning Enthusiast

    OMG, look how many people responded while I was typing. I was trying to be first.
     
    Lehigh96, Jun 10, 2009
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  9. gopher29

    gopher29 Coin Hoarder

    Vf-20
     
    gopher29, Jun 11, 2009
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  10. raider34

    raider34 Active Member

    I'm not too familiar with early copper either, but I would grade it VF25, I wouldn't be surprised to see it in a VF35 slab though.
     
    raider34, Jun 11, 2009
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  11. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    My opinion is better than Fine, but not quite VF20. Hair cords are distinct, but a bit too much wear on the curls to make VF20. I say F15.
    PS- EAC would probably grade lower. Those guys are tough.
     
    Eduard, Jun 11, 2009
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  12. mark_h

    mark_h Somewhere over the rainbow

    I got to ask - what is up with the color on the obverse? It makes me think recolored. Like others my first thought was VF, but I would not be surprised to see it in an XF slab. I will certainly have to study it more when I get home from work.
     
    mark_h, Jun 11, 2009
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  13. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    If they slabbed it they must have been in a forgiving mood that day. The coin has undergone an old cleaning, and then been been dipped more recently I'd say. All of the digs above ONE and the gouge at 6 o'clock, combined with the above, should have resulted in a bag for that one. And yes, I know they are forgiving with these older coppers, but they usually do have limits.

    All of that aside, I would say the coin has F15 details. Much of the obv rim is worn nearly flat as is much of the hair above and behind the eye. The top of the crown nearly merges with the letters and the hair above the crown is nearly worn flat. Pretty much the same for the reverse, much of the detail is nearly worn flat.
     
    GDJMSP, Jun 11, 2009
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  14. Danr

    Danr Numismatist

    Could you give us a run down on that old cleaning and what indicates an old cleaning. I ask because that is a common problem with older coins and it would help everyone to know what you saw.
     
    Danr, Jun 11, 2009
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  15. GDJMSP

    GDJMSP Numismatist Moderator

    Well, look at the obv of the coin overall - see how there are dark areas around all the devices & legends while there are much lighter areas in between them for the most part ? Now that - for the most part - is important for it is an indicator. That darker color is the color that almost all old copper turns, and the color will be pretty even and consistent on the entire coin. So when you see lighter areas in the open fields, and in between some stars, but not all of the stars, it's a pretty good bet that the coin has undergone a cleaning.

    Now look at the rev - see how the color is much more consistent and even over most of the surface ? Only in the center and between a couple spots on the legends is the color lighter.

    Now we are talking about the field areas here in both cases - the lowest points of the coin on both sides. But yet, on both sides, the tops of the devices and legends are consistently cleaner and lighter in color than the fields. With a notable and important exception, look at the hits on the letters on the rev like on the D. See how dark that is as compared to the higher surface around it ? Even the gouge below the bow, see how dark it is in the center (the low spot) but yet very light in color on the high spot where the displaced metal from the gouge was pushed to ?

    Well, those high spots are lighter in color than the low spots because the coin was cleaned. But the dark areas are not from dirt or accumulated grime - they are the dark color of naturally toned old copper.

    Now some will say that the lighter areas are naturally caused while a coin is in circlulation - and to a degree that is true. For the color wil rub off on the high spots - rarely will it rub off on the low spots of the fields though. And never will it rub off in unatural shapes with sharply defined lines. Look at the cropped pic for example. See how almost perfectly straight the left side of the lighter area is, and how it almost forms a right angle at the bottom left corner ? Normal circulation doesn't do that - only man can do that.
     

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    GDJMSP, Jun 11, 2009
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  16. just coins

    just coins New Member

    I would give it a VF20
    JC
     
    just coins, Jun 11, 2009
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  17. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    I think GDJMSP is very observant, and I agree with his assessment of the coin's surfaces (if not the grade).

    However, I would suggest that the coin has been (relatively) expertly recolored, and the evidence of this recoloring is the even coloration in the open and toned areas, the hue of the color, and the odd shape of the haloing of the devices (like the right angle and clean transition from light to dark described in the prior post).

    That said, you do see this type of haloing on original coins, just not quite like the way it is displayed on the example coin -- so one must be careful of labeling coins on haloing alone.
     
    Leadfoot, Jun 11, 2009
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  18. Eduard

    Eduard Supporter**

    GDJMSP and Mike's explanation on how to spot cleaned or re-colored coins is excellent.
    Thanks!
     
    Eduard, Jun 11, 2009
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  19. Leadfoot

    Leadfoot there is no spoon

    NGC graded the coin VF 30. It was part of the Rasmussen collection (which may explain in-part the "optimistic" grading and slabbing of this coin, as NGC has been known to be overly lenient when slabbing "big name" pedigreed collections).
     
    Leadfoot, Jun 11, 2009
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  20. tmoneyeagles

    tmoneyeagles Indian Buffalo Gatherer

    I was dead on! So what do I win? :D LOL!!!!
    I think if it is overgraded, it is not by much, I believe the coin is VF, without a doubt. Too bad to be a 35, and too good to be a 25, IMO. I think VF30 was a good grade
     
    tmoneyeagles, Jun 11, 2009
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  21. the_man12

    the_man12 Amateur Photographer

    What makes it too good to be a 25?
     
    the_man12, Jun 11, 2009
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