Help with Grading Raw 1855 Trime

Discussion in 'US Coins Forum' started by Publius2, Mar 29, 2023.

  1. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I could use some help with grading my 1855 3-Cent Silver. I picked up this raw example a few years ago at a local coin show for my type set. I graded it MS-60. I think it's obvious it's been dipped somewhere along the line and it shows some beat-up. I don't feel confident in that grade nor in my determination that it's not a details coin. Any unvarnished opinions would be welcome.

    I intend to replace this Type 2 example with a graded MS-64 or 65 coin when the time is right so part of my desire to fine-tune the grade of the existing coin is to prioritize the replacement amongst all my other wants.

    BTW, the 1855 is the lowest mintage of the Type 2 trimes at 139,000. This coin is also the RPD-001 overdate, closeup attached.

    DSC_0222.jpg DSC_0224.jpg RPD-001 Overdate.jpg
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  3. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Let me start the ball rolling with this can you grade a coin as such using the same system as an 1880 S Morgan?
    Now ducking the Whoa Paddy's coming at me think about it. An 1880 s morgan isn't on par with some better date Morgans.

    The op coin is one of two known rpd for the series. The rpd 001 1855/855
    Mintage 139,000
    Working dies obv 3 rev 3
    I grade the op specimen at 62/63
    As the mintage and survival rate should definitely be a part of the grading process.
    Not saying that if the op coin was the highest know specimen it be given a 70... but it should be graded on a curve.
    As the saying goes show me another? The same or better than...
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  4. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Not the prettiest but... s-l400-10.jpg s-l400-12.jpg
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  5. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    While I say this with some reservation because I'm not seeing the coin in person, unless my eyes deceive me, your coin has been whizzed.
    wxcoin likes this.
  6. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    A distinct possibility-although I have a lot of difficulty discerning that myself. I've looked at a lot of coins in slabs that have been whizzed and there are any number of them where I can't see it.

    Anyway, I just took a couple more photos with some different lighting. I also looked at the coin under the 30X stereo microscope which I didn't possess at the time of coin acquisition. I think I see raised ridges on the reverse devices which might be indicative of whizzing. I cannot see the non-radial marks in the fields that I associate with whizzing.

    1855 3CS-Obv.jpg 1855 3CS-Rev.jpg
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  7. KevinM

    KevinM Well-Known Member

    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
  8. Mr.Q

    Mr.Q Well-Known Member

    The overdate is clear as are the scrapes and scratches. May not grade high in that condition but in hand would probably look be much better. I like it, good luck.
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  9. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Well when it comes to fish scales lets look at specimen xf grade details damage.
    The highest straight vf looks to my eye having just as much going on....yet got a straight grade.

    37216614_168814038_800x800.jpg vf 30 straight grade pcgs
    s-l400-2-1.jpg mine

    So if we are grading on damage, sratches, tell me that specimen 1 doesn't show any??
  10. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Even Rob's new edition has a good size hit on the coin. And thats not said to knock his I find it quite pleasing. Just like to know who's grading ,and on what scale,and or curve?
  11. Mountain Man

    Mountain Man Supporter! Supporter

    Still, a nice coin to fill a hole.
  12. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    No, sorry it doesn't work that way, unless you are dealer who is trying squeeze extra dollars from the buyer. Rarity does not make the grading scale loser. But there are experts who disagree with me. They are wrong in my opinion. You pay high prices for rarity. The dealers don't get to double dip and make you pay more with higher grades that are unwarranted.

    The second set of photos confirm that this coin has been whizzed. Sorry.

    For what it's worth, here is my type coin, which is an MS-63. I had wanted an MS-64, but this was a "bird in the hand" until I found a better one. I have not bought the better one yet.

    This one has been dipped. The collectors who always want "original surfaces" won't like this one.

    1858 Trime All.jpg

    The first one has a few hairlines on the right side of the reverse. Otherwise I can't see anything wrong with it. I think that VF-30 is accurate.

    Your piece appears to have some rough surfaces on the upper left side of the star plus a vertical scratch running through the star.

    I handled one Proof Type II Three Cent Piece. It had quite a bit of die polishing, and it was a consignment coin. I sold sold over 20 years ago for more than $8,000.

    Here is a photo I down loaded of a Proof 1858 trime. This one has a few polish lines, going vertical, at a slight angle left, on the obverse.

    1858 Trime Proof O wholesale.jpg 1858 Trime Proof R Wholesale.jpg
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2023
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  13. KevinM

    KevinM Well-Known Member

  14. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    No need to apologize for doing what I asked, which is to give your opinion. After all, I had my doubts about the coin to begin with.
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  15. Paddy54

    Paddy54 Well-Known Member

    Well I guess we will agree to disagree.... as this alone makes grading by any TPG a the vf 30 has damage that is worse than a many a coin I've sent in and come back as damaged...and or sratched.
    And do believe that put to a poll here those whon have sent in coins only to have them body bagged or detailed for a heck of a lot less than on the vf 30 posted.

    So again we are at a crossroads which coin gets a pass,and a straight grade, and which are not..... and it doesnt ever out over time... so I dont buy that it doesn't.
    If there are noticeable marks on the surface seen as with your naked eye no loop...then theres and's if's or but's....and should be graded as such.
    And yes my specimen is or shows signs of damage... as does all the 3 cent silver coins posted this day.
  16. ToughCOINS

    ToughCOINS Dealer Member Moderator

    As @johnmilton indicated, the second set of photos definitely makes clear that the OP's coin is whizzed. In fact, it exhibited several very large and obvious marks before being whizzed, ostensibly to mask them.

    A good example of what natural luster and unmarked surfaces should look like on a 3CS is below . . . the diagonal lines on the obverse are rolling marks from calendering the planchet stock. Sorry the images aren't better . . . shot through a 2x2.

    .03-1852-1.jpg .03-1852-2.jpg
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  17. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    No, you can manually whizz coins. There used to be whiz kits available in coin shops in the 1970s. They still might be available. The set included some sort of solution with wire brushes.
    KevinM likes this.
  18. Publius2

    Publius2 Well-Known Member

    I appreciate everyone contributing to the discussion. Your comments have helped me to decide on the path forward, which is to replace this coin with a graded one. I'll keep this one because I like the RPD.
    Anthony Mazza likes this.
  19. johnmilton

    johnmilton Well-Known Member

    Please don’t roll over to the mob, unless you think you might benefit from it. ;) From experience you won’t when it comes time to sell.

    It’s the same old game. When you are buying, it’s an EF-40. When you are selling it’s, “That’s over graded, a “C” coin. I can’t pay you the listed price for that.” It’s no different from the pre slab days when dealers bought in one grade and sold at another.

    In the 1960s this was called “chestnut grading.” It is insidious. If the best known example of a rare variety grades VF-20, is it now an MS-65? Have a backbone and say “NO!” to the nonsense.
  20. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    I love this coin for its rarity, even if it is whizzed. Which, like you, I have a very hard time identifying it even in hand on some. It's not always as obvious as it sounds as I've showed numerous times with a buffalo nickel I sent in myself. Sent in thinking MS-63 and now resides in a whizzed slab.

    To me trying to identify fine scratches on coins is a crap shoot. And the smaller they are, the harder it is for me. Is it just from wear, cleaning, die polish lines? Sometimes I wonder if the graders even know on some. Some stuff may get away with it but if there's any indication that it's for sure been whizzed, it's going to get nailed with it. Sometimes metal gets pushed up against the devices at a microscopic level as a give away. The buffers they use can leave very fine scratches that leaves an unnatural, dull appearance that still flashes.
    An AU coin often has a ring of cartwheel luster around the edges that doesn't flash through the fields. That's usually a good indicator of not being cleaned or messed with. On these, being so tiny they don't really exhibit your normal cartwheel luster. It's just more of a luster flash. I don't know how else to describe it. And a lot of them have fine lines on them that may be die polish lines. Some don't have them. I own all three types in my US type set.

    1852 Type 1 PCGS MS-64 CAC

    1852 Obv.jpg 1852 Rev.jpg

    This one is a beautiful example that I received one year as a gift. It doesn't exhibit any lines and is my fav.

    1858 Type 2 NGC MS-63

    1858 3CS Obv1.JPG 1858 3CS Rev1.JPG

    I found this one at a LCS. It didn't get a very good strike up on the date. Being a type 2 in this grade it's worth nearly double that of the 64 in the first pic. These are pretty hard to come by so I wasn't leaving the shop without it.

    1861 Type 3 NGC AU-58

    1861 3CS Obv2.JPG 1861 3CS Rev2.JPG

    This one I had for many years in a type set. Was purchased raw and I submitted it myself. It has fine lines. Maybe from die polish wear or cleaning. Hard to say, but they gave this one an AU-58. It has a nice tone to it. I could upgrade it but I'm happy with this example.

    Decided to leave the pics large so we can see the surfaces better on these tiny things. I use a different lens than I normally do on these. The type 2 was a bit out of focus.
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  21. Vess1

    Vess1 CT SP VIP Supporter

    In your second pics it does have kind of a polished look to it. If you plan on keeping it, I might still consider getting it graded just due to the scarcity of if and the relatively nice condition despite possibly impaired surfaces. I'd pay for the variety plus too so it stands out as to what it is. NGC has only had 177 normal 1855s come through there and straight grade. They've only had 5 of your example come through. A 40, a 45, a 53, a 58 and a 64. Fwiw.
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