Help me understand doubling...

Discussion in 'Error Coins' started by croesus_amok, Jan 28, 2024.

  1. croesus_amok

    croesus_amok Supporter! Supporter

    I have spent a lot of time the past week looking closely at Buffalo Nickels. I have a few questions trying to understand what I'm seeing. I have spent a lot of time at VarietyVista.com and looking at examples online.

    Here is a close-up of two 1935 P nickels:

    BN_Comparison.jpg

    My questions (which I know are dumb - but dumb is the only kind of questions I have) are:

    1. Are the differences between the shape of the letters from Coin A to Coin B due to doubling or damage? For instance, the 'T' in cents in the top example is noticeably thinner than the 'T' in the bottom example.

    2. Some examples I've seen of doubling are quite obvious - i.e. the image is obviously doubled. Like here. Others are more like a widening - such as here. Are there any techniques or tips for distinguishing the nonobvious doubling from post-mint damage?

    3. Is the mint error that leads to these slight differences ubiquitous - i.e. is every set of coins produced from a die slightly different from every other die set? Or are these errors fairly unique?

    I know that is a lot of questions - I'm just trying to learn. Thank you for any thoughts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2024
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  3. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    One of them has larger devices, Is that because of damage or something else?
     
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  4. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    1) Damage with Die wear

    2) Yes. Practice. Practice. Practice.
    I would study Die deterioration vs. Strike doubling also.

    3) Not sure what exactly that you're asking. ??
     
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  5. Jersey magic man

    Jersey magic man Supporter! Supporter

    Both A and B have PMD and years of wear.
     
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  6. croesus_amok

    croesus_amok Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you - by 'Damage' you mean post mint damage right?

    As for question number three - I think what I am asking is this: When a mint employee makes a new die and introduces doubling, then every coin produced using that die will exhibit that doubling, right? Once that die deteriorates to an unusable point and is discarded - a new die is made and the coins that are produced afterward will not exhibit that same error (though they might have a different one). Is that right?
     
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  7. croesus_amok

    croesus_amok Supporter! Supporter

    Thank you
     
  8. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I can't speak from an employee of the mint's side but what you say sounds correct.
    P.S Yes, to PMD Not Mint error.
    The mint doesn't make errors. ( lol.gif ).
    Believe it?
     
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  9. Pickin and Grinin

    Pickin and Grinin Well-Known Member

    Doubled dies have definition to the devices, they show evidence of the doubling.
    Separation lines, notching, and really 2 clear devices. If it is worn you have to have the die markers.
     
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  10. Spark1951

    Spark1951 Accomplishment, not Activity

    You have to understand that with circulation wear everything starts to disappear.
    Any doubling and die markers will be very hard to pick up and past a certain point will be obliterated.

    The dies that have the doubling created on them progress through different stages of wear as they strike coins and eventually reach the end of their useful life. During this stage progression the doubling and die markers go from strong to weak to gone…imo…Spark
     
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  11. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    Is there a pictorial progression of this showing the stages of wear? That would be cool! I have something. Let me look and see.
    5d4b3caf935075e3f7b835aa_thought-leadership-ohmconnect-t-o-u-rates-emoji.png
     
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  12. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    True Doubled Die fall under the Variety category. Not the Mint error category.
    There's a difference.

    Variety
    A variety is a coin that differs from its basic design type in some distinctive way and is thus differentiated by collectors.

    Mint Error
    Coins with major mint errors as a result of human or mechanical error during manufacturing.

    https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/1655/Variety-versus-Mint-Error/

     
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  13. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    Yes.. just look at the pictures of every single thread on CoinTalk of members asking "is this doubling?" :banghead:
     
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  14. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    You'll hurt your head doing that.no?
    Like this perhaps. LOL.
    09175865_166311935_2200.jpg
     
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  15. paddyman98

    paddyman98 I'm a professional expert in specializing! Supporter

    You see, that's one of the few true Doubled Die varieties anybody should looking for. Such as the one recently discovered by one CoinTalk member!
     
  16. SensibleSal66

    SensibleSal66 U.S Casual Collector / Error Collector

    I know. Most are Not true DDO or DDR. They are few and far between but people look for the Great One always. Also, it's inexperience in Numismatics. Heck, I still have a ways to go myself. wink.png
     
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  17. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Go to this page and start clicking away and reading: https://doubleddie.com/.
     
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  18. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    The thing about die doubling is it repeats on every coin stuck by that die. It appears exactly the same, factoring in any wear on the coin. It doesn't grow or evolve from coin to coin. That's why it's identifiable and collectable. When the doubling is due to the striking of the coin, that's from a normal die, and the movement of the planchet when it was struck by the normal die. These planchets will move some when they're not secured in the coining chamber. That kind of doubling, we call "strike doubling," can be cool-looking, however, it's disparate, i.e., different on every coin, so there's nothing repeating to search for or collect. Strike doubling is a consequence of the planchet's seating in the chamber, that's all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2024
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  19. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Right.
    Right. Or the new die may not have any error.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2024
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  20. eddiespin

    eddiespin Fast Eddie

    Dies deteriorate as they're used. There's your difference.
     
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  21. alurid

    alurid Well-Known Member

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