OK,I know a few things,at least I think I do.It is a 2 liard,possibly minted at Liege but is it Belgium,Netherlands,Bavaria,Austria or all of the above? What was the configuration of this "empire" in 1752 and who was in charge? It has CAR (I assume Charles or Karl) DG on it but who was he? Also,which side is the obverse? HELP!
Mikjo0,the reverse is the crowned shield,which has a very strong Bavarian influence.I have seen coins from the Austrian Netherlands,which have a similar design on the obverse.These latter are listed under Namur. Aidan.
Bavarian at Liege under Johann Theodor Bishop of Regensburg and Liege (1703-1763) Appointed Bishop of Regensburg at age 15 and Bishop of Liege at age 40 in 1744 Could be wrong but this was under Maximilian III Joseph Elector (Duke) of Bavaria 1745-1777 eldest son of Charles VII Holy Roman Emperor, King of Germany and Bohemia, Duke of Bavaria...in 1752 his fathers successor Francis I was emperor and King of Germany (as well Duke of Lorraine and Grand Duke of Tuscany)...I think Shield is obv.
Your coin is for certain a 2 liards, issued for the prince-bishopry of Liege in the name of Johann Theodor. (Liege KM#158). The legends mean: I(ohann) THEOD(or) CAR(dinalem) D'ei) G(ratia) BAV(aria) D(ux) and on the reverse EP(iscopus) ET PRIN(ceps) LEO(dinium) DUX B(ullionensis) M(arquis) F(ranchimontis) C(omes) L(oniensis) H(orniensis) or in English: Johann Theodor, cardinal, by the grace of God duke of Bavaria, bishop and prince of Liege, duke of Bouillon, marquis of Franchimont, count of Loon and Horn. The prince-bishopry of Liege was a powerful state within the Holy Roman Empire. It consisted of about the modern provinces of Belgian and Netherlands Limburg and Liege. The state was not a part of the Austrian Netherlands, but a neighbour. It lasted until 1795 when it was annexed to France. After the repartition of 1815, it was a part of the United Kingdom of the Netherlands. When Belgium gained independence in 1830, Liege made part of it. It still is a major city in Belgium, being the most important city of Wallonia, which is the French-speaking southern part of Belgium. The obverse shows the crowned shield of the prince-bishop, the reverse shows the shields of Liege (middle), Bouillon (above), Franchimont (right), Loon (left) and Horn (below)
This was just a honorary title. There was only one REIGNING duke of Bavaria, but most of the Bavarian princes carried the honorary title DUKE OF BAVARIA. This title only meant he was a member of the Wittelsbach family, which ruled Bavaria until 1914. It is the same as in modern times all of the sons and grandsons of Karl I of Habsburg, the last emperor of Austria, are carrying the honorary title ARCHDUKE OF AUSTRIA.
Okay...I see...Those crazy royals and their many titles are confusing. I could only find Johann Theodor listed as Prince Bishop of Liege and Regensburg and Maximilian III Joseph as Elector (dux) of Bavaria under Francis I the Holy Roman Emperor. Oh well..live and learn
I want to thank everyone for their input but I have to say that Bart nailed it down to perfection...Thanks B!! Aiden's right,you da man!
Sorry for joining the thread late in the day. I see you've had some excellent responses, so the only thing I can add is a few examples of Liege copper coinage that i've got in my own collection. Starting with a 1 liard of Maximiliam Henri Then a 1, 2, and 4 liard of Johann Theodore. I've got quite a few different dates and variants. They make for interesting collecting. My favourite Liege piece has to be this silver Ducaton from 1666
Ian, Those are beautiful,especially the siver.I was wondering why your 1752 2L doesn't look exactly like mine while the 1751 4L looks identical except for the denomination (and presumably the size).I'm referring specifically to the center shield on the reverse.Yours is round.
Hi. As I alluded to earlier there are interesting die variations to be found amongst all dates and denominations that make for interesting (but difficult) collecting. More so because these coins don't seem to appear all that frequently these days. Mostly the variation is in the form of different fonts used for letters, location of the legends in relation to the arms, differing dimensions of obverse shield / crown, or different shape of shields reverse. Sadly, i'm not aware of any particular study into these coins that I can reference. Ian
