Help ID these two ancients.

Discussion in 'Ancient Coins' started by daveydempsey, Aug 12, 2019.

  1. daveydempsey

    daveydempsey Well-Known Member

    First off these are not mine and not my photos.
    The owner is from Turkey and he wants to know if they are real.

    Personally I think they are fake but that is just a hunch.
    The edges were not shown.


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  3. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    Your hunch is right: they are fake. They immitate coins from Ephese (combine deer and bee) and of Macedonia (combine Alexander and Zeus)

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  4. daveydempsey

    daveydempsey Well-Known Member

    Many thanks for your help.:cool:
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  5. Jims Coins

    Jims Coins Supporter! Supporter

    How about this coin? I think it might be Vespasian, can anyone help me identify this coin? Vespasian obv.jpg Vespasian rev.jpg
    Justin Lee likes this.
  6. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    It looks like the obv bust is resting on a globe, like in this example (Livia on reverse):
    Divus Augustus, Ruled 27 BC-14 AD, with Julia Augusta (Livia),
    AE Dupondius, Celtiberian/Roman Hispania, Colonia Romula,
    Struck under Tiberius after 16 AD

    Obverse: PERM DIVI AVG COL ROM, Radiate bust of Augustus right; star above, thunderbolt before.
    Reverse: IVLIA AVGVSTA GENETRIX ORBIS, head of Livia left set on globe, her head surmounted by a crescent.
    References: RPC I 73, SNG Copenhagen 421
    Size: 32mm, 22.3g
    Notes: Augustus captures the deified features of Sol (Apollo) and is associated with his wife Livia (Julia) as Luna. Livia is presented as the mother of the world, placed between the globe and the crescent moon. The accent is placed on the divine role of Augustus surmounted by a celestial body, not unlike that of J. Caesar, accompanied by the lightning of Jupiter. Livia is represented with the lunar (ascending) attribute placed on the globe which indicates that she is alive and mother of the present Augustus, Tiberius.

    Maybe it's another type from a similar area in Iberia?
  7. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    It also looks like I can see AVK on the right of the obverse legend... Greek lettering on a provincial. It looks like a large opening on the reverse temple... not sure what type of temple that is, but it is pretty unique (I haven't seen one like it).
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  8. shanxi

    shanxi Well-Known Member

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  9. memeni

    memeni Member

    I am the owner of those coins. For educational purposes, how were you able to tell it's an imitation?
  10. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    Just for perspective, @daveydempsey :

    My Alexander III of Makedon

    Makedon Alexander III Lifetime Tet Myriandrus mint-Alexandria near Issus

    My Epheses Stag & Bee

    Iona-Ephesos AR Obol Bee - opposing stag heads 340 BCE Seaby
  11. memeni

    memeni Member

    it really does look different. would you call mines metal ? why is it fake? is it the patina or the style ? the mold marks superficially on the bee doesnt make a full circle as well. also ive researched on this link
    Alegandron likes this.
  12. memeni

    memeni Member

    are they both silver ?
  13. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    I can never call myself an expert. I regret that I cannot and won’t render an opinion, because I am not an expert. Personally, when I purchase my Ancients, I try to do a lot of on-line or Ancients coin books research. I do a lot of comparisons. I also ensure that I know the seller and the coin before I buy.

    Over time, I slowly developed an eye to spot fakes: does it look right? are those familiar details or devices? Is that the proper wear and tear? Is the fabric (metal) right? Most of my coins were struck BCE, so a lot of “aging” would occur.

    Pictures are not always the best means to determine coins’ authenticity. So, I just don’t render an opinion, as I am not an expert.

    I am a Beekeeper, so here is another of my BEE coins:

    Iona-Ephesos AR Hemi-Drachm-TriObol Bee - Incuse Sq TIMESIANAX 335-320 BCE Seaby 4368

    Yes, both are AR (silver), as this one is, also.
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  14. memeni

    memeni Member

    the real owner, my friend is insisting these are real and very rare. How can I confirm this in Turkey ? whod be willing to come and make some physical tests haha?!

    also i dont know how good this pic is but [​IMG]
    Alegandron, Archeocultura and Bing like this.
  15. Justin Lee

    Justin Lee I learn by doing

    This is often exactly it... Just based on years of familiarizing yourself you can look at a coin and have a gut feeling that it looks "right" or "wrong".

    The Ephesus wouldn't have fooled me, as the wear, "toning", and wings don't look right to me. The AtG would've maybe fooled me, as I'm not familiar with them as deeply as I'd want to be to purchase one (and instead would have to rely on a fellow CT member/dealer to source one for me), so wouldn't have bought it myself anyways. I would've asked for more photos of the AtG.
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2019
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  16. memeni

    memeni Member

    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    these are the pics i have atm, if you think it's not enough i can get side pics in a couple of days. I really want to find out what this is 100%.
  17. Alegandron

    Alegandron "ΤΩΙ ΚΡΑΤΙΣΤΩΙ..." ΜΕΓΑΣ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ, June 323 BCE Supporter

    @memeni , thank you for your private message. I believe that you are such a new member, CoinTalk does not have a button in the message to reply to the note. To answer your question, I captured them several years ago. I really do not remember their costs, but the Bees were well under $100 USD, fully loaded cost (shipping, customs, fees, etc.)
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2019
  18. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    The bee is simply odd with the quaint stripes on its wings; I cannot find examples with such articulated and long legs of the bee.
    The deer has an antler of a form like a sickle, where most antlers are more true to nature. I cannot find the official's name anywhere. I don't like the shine, the edges (as far as I can see them) The Alexander coin is suspicious as the fields around Zeus are rather rough and seem cast.
    Just my hunch after 45 years of experience in ancients.

  19. memeni

    memeni Member

    This is why it is Real. i know 100% where this coin came from and it is so odd that it is very valuable. İ tested it, it is 100% silver and around 15 grams. İ can upload pics with the scale and sides as well. i want confirmation. That is it. Where do you live ? Please come to check it irl, i can pay people for that.
  20. Archeocultura

    Archeocultura Well-Known Member

    I suggest you post your coins on where there are perhaps more experienced numismatists who could cast their judgements.
    I live in the Netherlands; a bit too far away.

  21. memeni

    memeni Member

    sure posting there as well. I am sure these are real. i can come to netherlands with the coins, here i uploaded more pictures. I did the magnet test and they are pure silver. Bee weights 15.17 grams, Alexander weights 15.76. I know the history of the coins as well.




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