Have these dollars been 'cleaned'?

I wanted to get opinions on both of these coins as to there appearance, have they been cleaned/dipped/polished/whizzed/etc. Both were bought off of ebay and at the time of purchase I thought both to be "iffy", but as I've said before I'm a gambler and I know I will make mistakes, so I can take it. Also, since they are raw, grade opinions are welcome.

I can also supply bigger and better pics if needed.

1881-S Morgan



1926-S Peace

 

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They look dipped to me.

 

I suppose they've been dipped, but most have been at one time or another. I'm a little more concerned about the Morgan; it seems to have fine hairlines, possibly indicative of light, but abrasive, cleaning.

Both have cartwheel luster, so the cleaning / dipping is not too bad.

Whizzed ? I don't think so.

 

The first one was cleaned or polished harshly, and will not pass muster.

The second one, while it may have been dipped at one point (and I'm not entirely convinced of that) is certainly market acceptable. It looks nice to me.

 

Hard for me to say by the pictures, but percentages would have to say they've been cleaned or dipped more than likely sometime in their life. I think the Morgan might have been worked on a little rougher, but again with the photos and the marks some Morgans can have hard to say for me. I will say I think they are both nice coins.

 

It is very hard to tell from these photos.
The Morgan and Piece both look to be an AU coins thus one would expect some wear. I cannot see anything that looks like micro scratches on the Piece Dollar but the Morgan does appear to have some scratches that may have been caused by harsh cleaning.
I would agree the odds are they are both cleaned. Please get better photos for a better analysis.

 

For me, at least, the images make it difficult to make a solid/confident determination. That said, both coins look AU to me. And, while the first one looks as if it was probably lightly cleaned, I don't think it's been whizzed or polished.

 

1889 Morgan

Hope it's okay to piggyback onto this thread...

Unfortunately, someone cleaned this Morgan too. I bought it knowing it was cleaned and didn't pay much for it which was the impetus, cheap and still beautiful/worth metal value as well. I've always hoped that the cleaning might not have been to aggressive and wondered if it's still acceptable beyond just a date that fills a hole in someone's starter collection or it's weight in bullion. Any thoughts?

There are two cleaned Peace dollars I bought with this Morgan and can post those too if this becomes a 'cleaned dollars' thread or if anyone would happen to be interested in judging some more cleaned coins.

 

I will take some differnt pictures tonight of both. In hand, my guess would be that if they were dipped it wasn't to the point that they were burnt, as they both have nice luster. On the Morgan, I can't see the hairlines with the naked eye, I'll look at it with 5x magnifination when I get home, in fact the fields seem almost mirror like while the devices, especially on the reverse have a touch of frosting. If dipped or polished, would the fields and devices look similar in appearance?

 

With the uniform color/luster of the fields and devices I'd say it may have been dipped but doesn't look harshly cleaned. But, hey, I'm here trying to get educated myself.

 

There's a big difference between cartwheel luster and luster from polishing.

 

Hear, hear! This is one of the first tricks to being able to spot cleaned/polished coins. Once you get it the first time, once you make that first connection, it will be much easier the next time.

 

Is there a difference beween cartwheel luster and luster? I can't see any sign of cartwheel on either coin, but I also looked at some of my slabbed Morgans, and saw no cartwheel either. Also, is there a difference between polishing and whizzing?

 

"Cartwheel" is a term used to describe a certain look or characteristic to the "luster", but the two words can be correctly used interchangeably.


"Polishing" and "whizzing" are both very bad for coins and almost always severely diminish their value, but are two very different processes. "Polishing" is hopefully self explanatory. Whizzing: "Term to describe the process of mechanically moving the metal of a lightly circulated coin to simulate luster. Usually accomplished by using a wire brush attachment on a high-speed drill.
"

 

They look more polished then dipped to me ,the first two coins

Especially the obverse of the Morgan it's so obvious on the cheek area. When a coin is polished the scratches and dents show more bringing them out
JC

 

Ok, first we're going to start with seeing the cartwheel. Go get one of your slabbed Morgan's (by a Top TPG - PCGS or NGC) and a strong light source. Hold the coin at an angle, so that it reflects the light. You should see the coin shining. Now, slowly and gradually, turn the coin. Notice the shine move? That is what we call cartwheel luster - if you turn the coin in the right way, the "spokes" of luster will appear to rotate around the coin like a cartwheel. Practice at this until you can see the cartwheel luster. Practice at this before reading the rest of this thread. Practice at this before buying anymore coins. If you can't see and discern luster, you can't properly grade, evaluate, or purchase coins.

Now, what causes this luster? When a coin is struck, the metal flows up into the recesses in the die, filling out the details and causing raised areas, which we see as devices, letters, etc. As it flows, the metal wears on the die; because the metal flows the same way each time, it will wear "grooves" into the die. I say "grooves" because I can't think of a better way to describe it - in numismatic parlance we call them flow lines. These microscopic lines reflect light in every direction, causing the diffuse shine that we call luster.

When a coin is cleaned, this microscopic surface of the coin is disturbed. Depending on the method used to clean the coin, different disturbances are noted. This is one way we can tell how a coin was cleaned - baking soda or dipping will affect a coin differently than a wire brush or polish or whizzing, some of the most common ways to clean a coin.

There isn't really a single definition for a polished coin, its more of a catchall phrase, and can include wire brush, baking soda, or other methods. Whizzing, however, has a very specific meaning and a very specific look. Whizzing refers to when someone takes a rotating tool, such as a dentist's drill or a dremel, attaches a wire brush, sander, or polishing head, and goes at the coin. It gets its name from the "whizzing" sound this makes. If you are familiar with these tools, you can imagine the look this creates on a coin, although an expertly done whizzing can be hard to detect.

Taking a brush to a coin (wire or otherwise) creates a much different look - similar to the first Morgan posted in this thread. It usually has a large number of parallel lines, or groups of parallel lines in different directions. Usually, these polish lines will go over devices - if a line goes from the field, over a device, and back into the field uninterrupted, you can usually safely bet that it is a post-mint hairline or cleaning mark. Notice also that cleaning lines are recessed into the surface of the coin - the wire brush is intended to move and remove surface metal. Distinguishing raised versus recessed lines in the surface of the coin is tricky, but with proper lighting and experience, you can do it.

Both polishing and whizzing a coin have the same intended affect - to simulate original luster. This is why understanding luster, how it looks, and how its created, are so important - if you don't know what real luster looks like, you will never be able to discern artificial luster.

When you hold and rotate a polished coin under the light, in the same way you held your slabbed coins, you might at first see something that strongly simulates natural luster. But continue to rotate, and notice how differently it behaves. On a cleaned coin, because the polish lines all go in the same direction, quite often the luster will apear very strong in a particular direction. You must hold the coin just right to see it sometimes, and sometimes it is immediately obvious. It will glow unnaturally, and I'm sorry that I can't explain it better - but being familiar with natural luster, you will notice that it just doesn't look right. Experience is one of the best aids to determining this - hence my recommendation to examine and study numerous slabbed coins, to understand natural luster.

Well, I hope that helps you, or whoever else might read it. The best thing to do is examine as many coins as you can that you know are original, then when you see an altered or cleaned coin, you will be able to spot it. Good luck!

Jason, aka physics-fan3.14

 

Ok, so that I can be clear, cartwheel and luster mean the same thing? I thought cartwheel was where you can see the spoke-like effect emitting from the center of the coin to the edge of the coin, and luster was the "glossy-look" (for lack of a better term) of a coin. So from the above, if a coin has no cartwheel it has no luster and visa versa? Sorry for my densness but I've always seemed to use this terminology wrong, and would like to understand.

I understand whizzing, although I don't totally understand how one would actually "move metal". And I couldn't find a definition for polishing in the glossaries I searched. But I assumed it was just using a cloth and some type of polish/chemical to give the coin a "glossy-look ", same process as polishing and/or waxing a car?

 

To clarify Mark's post - cartwheel and luster can be used interchangeably, yes. Luster will always "cartwheel," or appear to move in a circular fashion when the coin is rotated. However, on an AU or circulated coin, or a coin with impaired luster, the term cartwheel is rarely used. Cartwheel generally implies the full, blazing, spokelike luster of a nice uncirculated coin. You would never describe an EF-45 with traces of luster hiding in the corners as having "cartwheel."

 

Very nice write up Jason, thanks for taking the time to do so.

I can certainly identify cartwheel, and I kind of learn by doing and seeing the results, so I have played with different types of coins, pocket change, and cleaning them in a multitude of different ways, baking soda, jewelry cleaner, tarn-x, ez est, etc. I've also played with re-toning them, oven, window sill, in a window sill in an orange prescription bottle, etc, and it has helped me identify certain coins as cleaned. It's not too hard to spot worn coins that are to "shinny" for the amount of wear, I guess where I am going to run into problems is where a coin might slide between a high AU grade and a low MS grade. I may have to pull out the ole' Dremel tonight and polish up some pocket change lol.

 

Here is an example of a coin that has been ionized too long (cooked). Notice, whitish collor on the high points. Sort of like a Proof coin. Extreme Ionizing can pull the tin out of bronze,Bring copper to the surface of sterling. But when done correctly ionizing is very tough to spot. Here are some bad examples. :loud: