Guess the grade 1863 Two Cent Piece

Predict the grade 1863 Two Cent Piece

I thought it would be fun to give you guys a shot at this before it goes to NCS/NGC .

So what do you think it will grade ?



Jay B- (you should chime in on this) how about a 1st post from you.

 

Log in or Sign up to hide this ad.

Is this a Fantasy piece or Pattern?

Ribbit

 

Very nice U.S. Essay piece! Provided it's authentic, that is

From Scott's:

Price is from my birthyear..1971!

Grade would be very hard to determine as there are less than 10 examples (assuming authenticity). Is this yours? How did you come across it?

 

Oh, I am 99.9999% sure it is authentic. It comes from a private collection of other patterns that haven't seen the light of day for many years.

It is a "company" coin. I can only dream for now as to own it. It is on the top of my list though for my next pattern purchase.

It is only 1 of 4 that I know of, the last one to sell on heritage was back in 2004 it sold for $8600.

It will be a tough one to grade. I think it will be PF65-66 red once it has been conserved.But of course my opinion is slightly scewed.

 

On that note, I should then ask if you know for a fact if it is composed of bronze or copper-nickel? the U.S. Mint Essay for the bronze planchet is a rarity of R7, but there were only three confirmed copper-nickel planchet essays for this type according to my source. The copper-nickel is the rarer of the two planchets used on this essay, the third planchet type being some "white metal" used as a uniface trial strike (1 specimen known).

 

Unfortunately from everything I can tell it is the Bronze type.

 

Into the valley of death rode the six-hundred...

I really don't belong here, but for my curiosity. If you can, Jason, take a look at this .pdf file:

http://www.birdcoin.comByron Reed 2001 June 18.pdf.

I'm wondering, is it bronze (P93), or is it copper (P94)? You can tell by the weight.

PS: I think this is genuine and an exquisite gem, do let us know what the TPG thinks...

EDIT: I see we were writing at the same time...did you check the weight on that?

 

Sorry Eddie- This is Judd-315

The coins you linked to are J-312 & J-312a

Look at the word cents on the Reverse ,It is not as curved on my piece as the one you linked to. Thanks for the info though - I always liked Byron Reeds collection as a referance.

The weight is 93 grains.

 

I see exactly, now, Jason...thanks!

PS: And then they rode back. But not, not the six-hundred...

 

A lot nicer than my J-312 (which is a Fine 12 at best)

 

Unfortunately, my resource on the essays does not include weights. Out of curiosity, is the planchet thicker than a normal two-cent piece from 1964? The bronze planchets will be a thinner planchet (those used in the 1964 production), while the heavier copper-nickel planchets should be thicker.

Just really curious, since I've been researching two-centers these past six months and there should only be less than a dozen of all planchet varieties for this essay. Thanks for sharing with us!

 

The planchet is just a touch thinner , but the sharp rims make it appear a near match.

 

Budgood - very nice. What is going on with the reverse dentils between 4:30 and 6:00? Is that wear or is it just the camera focus?

 

Nothing - it is just the light as you said . Everything is very crips & sharp.

 

Another beautiful coin , when I 1st glanced at it I wondered if you were selling it & if I could afford it , then I looked at the date . Love those dentrils on the obverse . PR-66 .
rzage

 

Beautiful.
I grade it MS-WOW!

 

I'll take a guess - 65. Very cool coin!

Reverse - nick beside the 2, nick above the D in United.

Obverse - scratch on vertical shield bars

I know I might be seeing things that aren't there.....really tough to judge from pics.

 

Very nice. Yeah, I would definitely call it bronze. It's just 3 grains under specification, so the thinness of the planchet matches for bronze. Even if the coin had any problems, being authenticated an essay with a rarity of R7, the TPG would probably not bodybag it based on rarity alone. I'm not sure how NGC identifies essay peices, but my guess is that there should be an SP, not PR designation for this piece??

Because of the rarity, I would guess that after conservation, they may grade it as high as SP-67 "Pattern", if the details are actually as sharp as they appear, taking into consideration the lighting on the picture.

I think they may place it as a "Pattern", instead of "Trial Strike" irregardless of the fact that the original two-cent that was proposed in 1863 was for a legend of "God Our Trust". The law that required "In God We Trust" was authorized in 1864, after these essays were struck. A combination of three different obverses and two different reverses were used on six different planchet types in 1863 resulting in nineteen different patterns for the two-cent in this year.

Interestingly, one pattern was made of a "golden" alloy, with Washington's bust on the obverse...Presidential Dollar, anyone?

 

There were close to probably a dozen on three different types of planchets for this particular essay. However, the problem is that these same die (assuming there was only one set) were used to strike three different essay types. Accordingly, each die (obv/rerv) was probably used for at least 220 strikes.

Whether or not they were struck at the same time could be debatable. what we would have to assume is that the mint ran each essay straight through, changing planchet types through the short run. However, I think that maybe they would have changed the dies and used the same type planchets instead. For instance, placing the Washington head obv. with the slight curved rev., striking a few samples, examining them, then changing the obv. die to GOT, striking a few, then changing to the strong curved rev., striking a few, then changing the planchet type, and repeating the process.

In all, the die combinations resulted in five different types of essay in 1863, three of which used this particular reverse.

Consider the possibility, perhaps, of an optical illusion due to not only lighting and photo quality, but also the fact that the picture you linked is slightly aligned to the counterclockwise position compared to the photo here in the thread.

I have only touched the tip of the iceberg myself with the two cent patterns. For such a short series in and of itself, it's amazing that with the variety of planchets and pattern dies, there are 27 different essays for the two cent piece.