Was wanting to do this in two parts firstly for beginers of Greek coins like me to see if you can identify it so experts dont give the game away ( i know who it is only because of dealler info when i bought it ) otherwise i may have struggled so no clues as yet. To you experts why would someone deface the king they could have put it neerer the rim and what does it really mean, bankers mark, mint mark (although i no where it came from )or devalue the coin would be really nice to know When you see the raised part of the countermark it looks like a Maltese Cross
The style is odd. Possibly an imitation. There are are quite a lot of celtic imitations of this type. Athena, not the king
Imitations are real coins, too. They were often made by local tribes to facilitate trade in areas where official coinage was scarce, and usually circulated along side official coinage in outlying areas. I don't know whether your coin is official or a Celtic imitation, but if it is an imitation, that might explain the countermark. It could have been intended as a "seal of approval" by a local authority saying that this coin is accepted for trade by the government.
Exactly, so whose face was defaced, the king's or Athena's ? Here are two official examples and two ancient imitations. To which category does your coin belong? Decide for yourself. Official: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6700714 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6933028 Imitation: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4470770 https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=4603401
Already replied but seemed to have lost it however Official Second one down NOTE the position of the spearhead Gsimonel I except what you say about imitations but not quite sure if I agree with you about countermarks have seen many Roman coins with countermarks but fewer Greek ones let's hope the experts will reply One clue if I understand things correctly he was the first King of Thrace
Interesting coin. I'm not sure the countermark in such instances were necessarily meant to deface the king's (or god's) image. Here are a few reasons why countermarking happens - I'm sure I've missed some reasons, but these come to mind: 1. To validate a "foreign" coin for use in an area far from where it was minted. Here are a batch of modern (18th-19th century coins) with countermarks revalidating them for use far from their place of origin (France/Switzerland; Spanish Colonial/British Honduras, England, Sumatra, Portugal; British India/Sumatra, England/Costa Rica; United States/Azores): 2. To validate a counterfeit coin - the Romans did this a lot with the TICA and AVG countermarks on worn & underweight provincial as imitations in the 1st century. 2. To change the value/denomination. Here is "DVP" stamped on a worn imitative sestertius of Claudius re-values it to a dupondius, etc. In my collection thanks to jamesicus (thank you!): 3. To obliterate a ruler. Here a Galba (in Greek) countermark is placed deliberately over the face on a Nero as. This may have also revalidated the coin for use, or its denomination, or geographical validation, but there is no way to know. The examples of these I've seen all have the countermark applied over the face this way, which makes it a good guess that obliterating Nero was part of the plan: 4. Unknown. A lot of ancient countermarks are mysterious. I just got this one recently - a triple countermark issue from Lacicea ad Mare for Antoninus Pius. This could show more than one reason - revalidation, re-valuation, or use in new territory. I doubt we'll ever know. (Or I am revealing my lack of Howgego in my library ) Antoninus Pius Æ 24 Yr. 188 (140-141 A.D.) Syria, Laodicea ad Mare [AVTO KAI TI AIΛI AΔΡI A]NTΩNE[INOC CEB](?), laureate bust right / IOYΛIEΩN TΩN KAI ΛAOΔIKEΩN, Tyche bust left, ΘE-HΠ P in fields. RPC 6265 temp.; BMC 61. (7.34 g. / 24 mm) Countermarks: CM 1: Laureate head Antoninus Pius right, in 4 x 6 mm oval punch, Howgego 113 (156 pcs). CM 2: Bust of Tyche right (?), in 4 x 5 mm oval punch, Howgego 203 (?) (4 pcs). CM 3: SA[E] in rectangular punch, 8 x 4 mm. Howgego 572 I was lucky to find another example of this coin - see FORVM Automan Collection: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=546&pos=28 *** As for the OP host coin, there is a very interesting article by Reid Goldsborough on these: http://rg.ancients.info/lion/lysimachos.html The countermark I've usually seen on these is like this one (category 2, probably) : I left the attribution off per OP request.
Marsayus Mike Have a coin of you playing the double flute. You have posted an excellent thread I like your answer #3 if again I understand what I have read this coin was minted in the town of Amphipolis in Macedonia 287/286--281/280 which would be the last years of this Kings reign but like everything else i could be wrong. Your last link is excellent but it gives the game away not sure but I think the countermark is called a windmill design.
Sorry about the link - there were other links giving similar info, so I was hoping my addition wouldn't further compromise the air of mystery! The host coin you posted is, I believe, a Celtic imitation, so it was probably not minted in Amphipolis - although perhaps the countermark was applied there to validate it. I think these imitations were made in the wilds of Thrace, further north where the non-Boston Celtics dwelt - others on CT would know more about this. Indeed, I do not know what the countermark is called - "windmill pattern" seems reasonable, but I have only been collecting ancient countermarks for a year or so, so I don't know much. I do know it's interesting! The double-flute Marsyas you refer to is probably this one from Apameia, Phrygia- it is pretty much the only affordable Marsyas.
My photo of your coin is on another computer but if the obv : is Tyche then it's the same one. Still think the coin is official ( where the dealer got his info from I don't know because he quotes the full legend and you can see the bottom of the rev : is worn ) any others willing to say something
The time has come the Walrus said, To talk of many things, Of shoes---And ships---And sealing-wax, Of cabbages---And KINGS. We can of coarse say the coin was issued by Lysimachus the first King of Thrace and successor to Alexander the Great. What the dealler wrote :- Thrace Kings Lysimachus (306-281 BC ) AE Head of Athena right wearing crested attic helmet Basileos--Ayeimaxoy lion leaping right below monogram between kerykeion and spearhead 4.7g Two things to note he did not mention the Obv: was countermarked and Rev: when he mentioned the word kerykeion ( had to look it up ) winged staff adopted by the medical profession i cannot see it anywhere must be microscopic. The only other thing i can add it is 20/22mm and it does weigh 4.7g but i don`t know the denomination. When i wrote it was minted in the town of Amphipolis i think the info came from a French site when it comes to being Official i think it is really the link shanxi gave second one down and i feel the position of the spearhead is very important the link M.M gave very nice and worth a read and in the imitations shown the spearhead is all over the place as with others i have seen. Regarding the countermark i think i have seen the same or similar on blobs of silver you call staters not much more i can really add. Now it`s over to you the Experts hoping you will share your thoughts remember there are newbies comming into the hobby and they also would like to learn.
I will bow to the greater knowledge of those that have already pointed out that your coin is a local imitation, that would be my opinion also but this is obviously not what you want to hear. Could you explain the importance you place in the position of the Spearhead over the appearance/ style of the coin ? Plenty of extremely useful information has been posted for your benefit and the consensus is Imitation. Asking for the knowledge of those better qualified than yourself in order to help You in your quest and then to ignore and dismiss said knowledge because it doesn't fit your criteria is beyond rude. You wont learn a single thing if you are wearing Blinkers, take them off and pay attention to the extremely useful information provided by other members who are kind enough to share their knowledge and expertise, which you admittedly lack. Forgot what you think you don't know and replace it with schtuff you can understand and work with, things will get a lot easier.
I agree with all that you have possibly an imitation. I saw that countermark before on a Lysimachos bronze type with Herakles on the obverse and a grain ear wreath on the reverse, which was possibly also an imitation. As @Marsyas Mike mentioned, it is probably called a "windmill pattern" countermark. Most likely to revalidate to use as official currency.
tenbobbit have to say I find your reply offensive and rude remember there will be other newbies reading this post it's not my fault if you cannot follow the thought of a genius. If it turns out to be Micky Mouse so be it. Why you could not reply in a responsible manor like Pavlos has beats me enough said.
Seems to me we are getting close to a flame war. Might be a good time to pause this discussion for a bit.
Posting in a responsible manner clearly had no effect on what you Thought so I decided to try another method and got exactly the response I expected Time to utilize that useful button as others have.
Only with regard to the countermark, the windmill pattern, or I've seen/heard it referred to as mill-sail pattern (really, same difference), was used on the reverse AR Siglos & 1/2 Siglos coins of Bithynia on the southwest side of the Black Sea as well as the Thracian city of Byzantion/Byzantium on the very east side of the kingdom of Thrace. These Siglos were struck just under 50 years earlier than this OP coin being struck. This might be the area that the coin was circulated and was deemed official/retariffed/whatnot for use in that area's economy with that countermark. Bithynia mill-sail pattern example:
