Grading question

Okay since I am new to this I feel it is important to try and learn grading while I'm starting out so it gets easier down the road, and so I don't get ripped off while I'm still a newbie. My question is: does Mint State or Uncirculated literally mean UNCIRCULATED? Does it mean the coin was literally never circulated; (i.e. never in a cash register, pocket change, etc.), or does it just mean it looks like it did when it left the mint for circulation. I guess a better way to say it is: Can a circulated coin grade Uncirculated/Mint State? I can't seem to find a clear answer. I'm going to buy the ANA Grading Guide soon, but this has been confusing me ever since I read into it more.

 

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A coin that circulated, cannot or should not be authenticated as " Uncirculated " . However a coin that was made for circulation , but has no visible indications of being circulated can be termed an " Uncirculated - Mint State " specimen .

 

An eternal question along many lines. If it doesn't show any evidence of circulation it can be graded mint state. Often I can get a roll of new coins such as cents from the bank and they are MS ( some are MS-damaged from the rolling process). This is the basis of the "AU58/MS63" question that traps so many collectors. The difference may be extremely small between the rather large grading gap. Even experienced collectors can get caught. You send your beautiful MS coin to PCGS or other and it comes back AU-58. I feel grading ability AU-55 or below is a much easier than 58 and above. Practice on the lower levels first until you feel confident to try the higher stages.

jim

 

See that's the info I keep finding, which makes sense, but I get confused when I keep seeing all these old coins like Morgans and the like grading MS. The thing is how can those grade MS since you might not know what it's been through since it may be older than you. (Saying "you" in general in this instance.) Another thing is would it then be possible to find a coin that grades MS even though you know you got it in circulation? I am aware that AU-58 is the highest grade a circulated coin can recieve, but I guess I just don't know why, especially with the pictures of old coins that look very circulated actually grading uncirculated. It's just alot to take in at this point in my collecting experience. :headbang:

 

Morgans are interesting in that before 1964, many banks would order in new bags of Morgans so their customers could get them to give away for Christmas, birthdays, etc. So they were "circulated" to the customers, but would grade MS. That is why sometimes a "Hoard" is discovered at a old bank in the vault.

 

I feel another debate about roll friction in the future of this thread.

 

Hey Evil,

Please read the thread linked below. It should answer every question you ever had on this topic, and I just don't have the energy to go through the same debate again so soon.

Brilliant Uncirculated

Feel free to ask questions after you read the thread.

Paul

 

Thanks for the link but I'm not sure I see the relevance. I understand what a BU is in relation to MS, but my questions were strictly about circulated coins and the literal meaning of Mint State. Also if it was possible to find a coin that grades MS even though it was found in ciculation. That's the whole basis of my confusion.

 

Read the ENTIRE thread, not just the first page! The debate starts with post #27.

 

Okay so the argument is more based on what the companies grade differences are which doesn't help me. I am more wondering is when I try to estimate grades how can I know where to classify it. I understand if i got it in circulation it should fall under the AU or less category, but as I've said I wasn't sure on the literal meaning of Mint State. My confusion is maybe I estimate a coin at say AU-55 and I send it in for slabbing and it comes back as MS-60, (all hypothetically speaking, don't get technical on me about the grades), how am I supposed to be able to estimate that? Especially if I, (just an example again), personally found it in circulation.

 

The TPG's don't know where you found the coin. All they know is what they can see. The rule of thumb is that if the coin shows only slight high point wear but no friction in the fields, the coin becomes a candidate to be graded as a mint state coin thereby designating the wear to be a product of roll/cabinet friction.

What I don't understand is why it is so important for you to be able to predict when an AU coin will grade mint state. If you think it is AU and your are expecting an AU grade, why would you be upset that it came back in a mint state holder?

 

So then to answer my question it is possible to find Mint State coins in circulation?

And I never said I'd be upset??? I was speaking hypothetically. I am not tryin to predict if an AU will grade higher. I am simply tryin to clear up my confusion between MS and circulated coins. No offense but I feel like you are overcomplicating it. My whole confusion is coins graded MS from circulation. That is literally all my confusion is, nothing more. My problem is, it's not a big deal stopping myself at AU-58 for any circulated coin I find, but if it could grade higher why wouldn't I try an estimate it higher. That's what I mean. Just how can you tell?

 

You can tell by learning how to grade coins. It's not about where you found the coin, but the characteristics of that coin. The best way to learn how to grade coins is by reading books on coin grading, and viewing graded coins. By reading the books and viewing graded coins, you'll begin to recognize the differences between MS vs AU and VF vs XF. It's just like practice with anything else, the more things you read (on grading) and the more coins you view, the easier (and accurate) it will be for you to grade raw coins.

And to answer your other question. Yes, it is possible to find MS coins in circulation.

If you haven't done so already, I would suggest getting a copy of the ANA Grading Standards, and also signing up with Heritage (for viewing graded coins).

 

Ahhh thank you. Those are the more simple answers I was looking for. I figured that it would be possible and maybe even pretty common to find coins in circulation that are in incredible shape and grade close to or in the MS range. It's the the UNCIRCULATED label that tripped me up. I figured it was only based on the coins characteristics, because that just makes sense. But replies like (paraphrasing) "a coin found in circulation should not be labeled Mint State". That's why I kept asking basically, Why? If a true uncirculated coin looks the same as a nice circulated coin why wouldn't they grade the same? That was most of my confusion.

And thank you I just ordered a copy of the ANA Guide along with some other supplies from jpscorner.com. BTW what is Heritage? Was I in the right place when I found Heritage Auction Galleries?

Thank you for the more sensible explanation. :thumb:

 

You never stated you wanted a dumbed down answer. If you had, I would have given you one. The truth is that the issue is very complicated and very controversial. If you want the simple answer, you will never really understand why TPG's grade coins with wear as mint state coins. Is that plain enough for you?

 

But I never said anything about what TPGs do. I was merely concerned about how I should go about estimating grades on coins simply for my record keeping. If I estimate an AU that deserves MS then I want to be able to tell. I want my grades as close as I can get them but as I said the UNCIRCULATED label tripped me up and I was just wondering if I could still reasonably estimate MS even though it was acquired in circulation. I didn't feel like I made it sound complicated

 

This is what you wrote in your OP

Did you mean it or not? If you want to learn about grading, and are concerned about circulated coins grading MS, then you need to have an in depth understanding of what roll/cabinet friction looks like on a coin. You need to know which series of coins are more prone to be graded MS despite high point wear. And yes, you need to know what the TPG's do and why.

So now you know that a circulated coin can be graded MS. How do plan on estimating which AU coins deserve to be graded MS? Heads or tails?

BTW, you are very argumentative for someone who doesn't have a clue!

 

EvilKidsMeal: While, Lehigh's responses may seem overcomplicated to you, it's only because grading coins is complicated.

My response was a very basic, and simple answer to your specific question, but note I said this "You can tell by learning how to grade coins. It's not about where you found the coin, but the characteristics of that coin."

What Lehigh is trying to explain to you is all the aspects you will have to know to learn how to grade coins. Like he said, to learn just how to tell if a coin is MS or AU, you're going to have to be able to identify wear, and other characteristics such as (roll/bag, cabinet friction, weak strikes, ect).

​

 

Believe it , there are probably billions of Morgan Dollars that never , ever circulated .

 

http://www.coingrading.com/ Here is a site which will give you some directions in your personal " Grading " attempt. Now , I'm certain you can follow instructions . While this technical information is very helpful , you must remember that Grading is a " Subjective Art " . Everyone see's something different when they look at the Mona Lisa painting. Get yourself the copy of the ANA Grading standards , practice , practice and practice. A fascinating subject and a worthwhile understanding in " How Coins are made " , will only assist you in your grading efforts . This site is open 24/7 . Lots of good folks here to help with any questions you have .http://www.coingrading.com/