Gordian III - EASTERN MINT - AEQUITAS - Antioch?

Hi, I got this Gordian III coin for a very reasonable price, I love the reverse. It was sold as being from an 'Eastern mint' and it looks like it to me, when I look at the style of the lettering used in the titles, specifically the letter 'M' on the obverse in the 'M ANT GORDIANUS' part of the titles.
But I was wondering if any of you guys knew specifically which Eastern mint this is from, or if it is unknown to all? Any help would be appreciated.... this is the seller's pic, it doesn't show how nice the reverse really is, I will try to take some new ones myself this week, and post them here in this thread.

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Ancient Roman Empire
Emperor Gordian III (238 - 244 AD)
Silver Antoninianus, Eastern Mint.

obv: IMP CAES M ANT GORDIANUS AUG - Radiate bust right, draped and cuirassed.

rev: AEQUITAS AUG - Aequitas standing holding scales and cornucopia.

4.44 grams
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Thanks.

 

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I can't comment on the mint, but the rev. looks great!

 

All ready mentioned its a very nice, coin, especially the reverse. I dont have a Aequitas reverse.

 

Some people say Antioch but we really don't have solid evidence on any mint attributions and were tend to assign mints to major cities as a best guess. Some attributions compare styles from Provincials but what we see could be explained in other ways as well. Mints marked with city ID were rare before the late 3rd century.

 

Another Unknown Eastern Mint coin

Yeah.... I think it is from Antioch because of the lettering, specifically the 'M' in 'M ANT GORDIANUS' on the obverse like I said, the Antioch 'M' and the Rome Mint 'M' are noticeably different during this period if you look closely... one looks like two upsidedown 'V's together, the other looks more like two 'I's, one on either side with a right side up 'V' between the two 'I's... all I can say is that it isn't from the Rome Mint....
I like it alot, and the reverse has some amazing detail in hand, the seller pic is nice, but I will get some better ones highlighting the reverse detail as soon as I can.
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Now this will interest dougsmit I also won, from the same seller, and for a very very small ammount of money, another 'SPES FELICITATIS ORBIS' Philip I antoninianus from the Unknown Eastern Mint, it has a flan flaw, but a great sharp portrait is still well visible, I already have the same coin, in higher grade weighing over 5 grams, but this one was too good an opportunity to pass up, even for a flawed/damaged coin. Tell me doug, if you had to, and I know you wouldn't want it, but what price would you pay for this coin? I am not trying to sell it heh, just curious as to what the man who wrote the best paper I have ever read detailing the Unknown Eastern Mint Philip Coins that I love to collect would pay for one in this condition......
I also include photos of my higher quality version of the same coin, one of both obv and rev together, and one of the obverse alone, you shouldn't have any trouble telling which is which since the flan flaw on my new one is quite obvious.... now I just need the PAX FUNDATA CUM PERSIS, and all three of the reverses with the PM below the bust on the obv not exactly an easy or cheap coin set to complete heh.
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AD 244 Unknown Eastern Mint
Emperor Philip I - AR Antoninianus.

obverse: IMP C M IVL PHILIPPVS P F AVG PM - radiate, draped & cuirassed bust right.

reverse: SPES FELICITATIS ORBIS - (English translation: 'Hope for a Happy World') - Spes (Hope) advancing left, holding flower in one hand and lifting skirt with the other.

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I really wish you wouldn't ask such a question. I don't want to offend but the coin is not rare enough for one in that condition to carry any special value. That leaves it as a question of what any antoninianus is worth. Perhaps double melt? The value would be to someone who thinks anything that old is valuable but is not fair to ask someone who already has a nice one. I do own some severely damaged coins but they are either rare or expensive so I'm willing to have it as is.

 

I know I am not Doug, but valuing a coin like that one is tough. A damaged coin to me is different than one with a defective flan, even though the results are the same really. For a broken coin, value is a base of the original I believe in all cases, just what percentage. I would think for anything other than a tiny chip I would start at half value and work my way down.

For me Rex, I would look at that coin and think half to 1/3rd full coin value would be the ballpark. Even at that price coins like this tend to sit in dealer inventory. If the full coin was worth $60, (I don't know the value of these really well), then I might buy it for a $20 bill.

Chris

P.S. If the same coin was struck on a defective flan than I would be looking at more like $30-40. I am more willing to accept a defective mint product if it as it came from the mint than post mint damage. That would explain at least half my Byzantines.

 

Chris makes a good point. If the defect is in any way explainable as part of the coin, the 'problem' can be overlooked. If the issue was known for being ragged (like many Byzantine) then damage is not damage but 'personality'. If the damage is, for example an ancient cut or holes made in antiquity or evidence the coin was struck on a flan adjusted for weight, I might even like it more than a 'normal' coin (I'd still expect a discounted price from a dealer because most people don't agree with my 'liberal' views). That is not the case here.

I attach some images many have seen before. Of the group only the Commodus with Isis and Serapis is 'damaged' in my eyes. I bought it because I liked the type and did not see myself likely to get a perfect one. The others have 'situations' that add to their story as coins so I was happy to get them at a reduced price compared to normal examples.

 

So many of my Byzantines have "personality" I should give them a talk show.

Btw I just LOVE that Commodus, damage or not. That is simply a FANTASTIC reverse. I would love to find one. We had a talk last month about the Roman Isis coinage and its meaning and rarity. Its amazing nondescript little late romans like that have so much interesting history and are so bloody rare and valuable. They really look like common junk box finds.

 

Funny, I bought a Domna/Isis & Horus. I didnt need it & its common but always liked the type from seeing dougs & it was a good price.

 

Sorry I was unclear. The Isis coinage in the talk were late Roman Imperial made (rarely) to celebrate the boats bringing grain to Rome. Those were the rare ones I was talking about.

As a side note, Isis could be considered the last Roman pagan god. Her cult was the last major pagan cult to sweep Rome before Christianity.

 

I figured it was something different. I havent seen those kind of coins I dont think. So they would be new to me. I was just referring to Isis in general & that I finally have a coin with that particular god.

Im still on the hunt for a nice one with Cybele.

 

To the original topic, I would be careful ascribign these to Antioch. Usually authors of attribution sources have reasons why they don't attribute issues to a certain city. "Eastern mints" can usually be seen by style, as many had similar styles pleasing in that geography. Just because the style is like some Antioch issues does not mean much, since other nearby mints frequently had similar styles.

I am just saying unless digging into the details as to why a coin was NOT assigned a certain mint and reading the debates going back and forth, and looking at historical find sites, I don't think anyone here is really in a position to assign the mint source for these. Even Doug.

 

I so agree. In many cases we use place names because it is convenient to maintain the system started by a standard reference years ago. In a few cases the style links to named provincials to a point that we are pretty certain but in many cases we are really saying "the mint location traditionally ascribed to.....".

 

Not offended at all, I'll make sure not to ask you any such questions in the future. I was just curious as to the value of one in such condition, I thought you may be more in touch with sales of these types either now or in the recent past, I just personally don't see them too often, I just always figured them somewhat unique and interesting historically, well at least 'unique' in the sense they only did them with the three reverses, I know they made plenty, and they aren't very rare. I paid very little for this coin and I too have a nicer one.

As far as these being ascribed to Antioch by most people selling them, on ebay and such at least, and others, I always went with 'Unknown Eastern Mint' and not Antioch, I am not convinced at all these issues are from that city. However I Have a Philip II, with the temple reverse 'SAECULUM NOVUM' and I am fairly sure it is from Antioch. First pic.

As for the Gordian AR Ant... I don't know about the mint.... Eastern I believe, I loved the reverse though, thats what I really like. I have an AEQUITAS of Antoninus Pius I was thinking about selling.... I have never sold a Roman coin.... all the ones I have bought so far have stayed with me, some given as gifts to close friends and such, but I like the Antoninus Pius denarius too.... this Gordian Antoninianus one just caught my eye.

 

The one thing that I am least 'in touch with' is the coin market. I make no sense out of the prices asked and received. I go to a show and see two dealers with substantially equal coins with one priced ten times the other. I see people selling severely damaged coins completely ignoring the problem while I see others downpricing for a coin having a normal degree of edge cracks. In the hobby we have to look at a coin and decide what we will pay. Condition seems to make a major difference in price but who has a coin and the venue selling it makes a greater difference. I hate the price question since someone will have no trouble finding an example at half or double any guess I'd make.

A quiz: The three coins below sold within two years (a decade ago) for $35, $45 and $195 (I'm not telling which is which). How would you grade them? If they were to appear on the market today what would be the 'fair market' price?

 

My guess is the second goes the highest, then the third then the first. I actually prefer the third but the second is more fully centered on the flan.

I am cheap, and don't know if these are rare, so baseline I would say $80 for 2, $60 for 3, and $40 for 1 as a retail guess.

Edit: For grades, I would go:

1. aVF, (too much weakness on reverse)
2. aEF, (rvs hurts it, but centering is spectacular, which is itself pretty rare)
3. VF/gVF, (my favorite but technically not the highest grade)

All are around the VF mark, so I am suspicious if they were all sold as VF. I know Doug likes his tricks. I still state number 2 should have sold highest technically, and I would not really be surprised with a $195 price tag especially from some dealers.

 

Price wise from Highest to lowest 1, 3, 2 ? of price, 35-45 sounds good for the cheaper 2 of the 3.


edit:submitted too soon

I haven't looked at much of is coinage to really get a good idea of prices though. I never really bother with grades. Grading seems to vary allot from person to person (or dealer to dealer) and I never really got the hang of it.

 

Grading is not always fair. If you look at reverse figures on my three you see one has a better face while another is a better body. One separates the ear from the crown better but that is the only thing about it that is better than the other. That is why we can't grade by little flags like they do on US with the number of letters of Liberty etc. It is quite possible for two coins to be relatively equal but nothing like each other even if they were from the same dies.

 

Interesting, I understand what you are saying.
As for the three you posted doug, I find the one in the middle, the second one posted to be the most appealing to me personally, and Spes' face looks quite nice on the third one, also for me, the weight/size would make a diference in what I would pay, for instance I would pay a decent ammount more for the same coin that weighed 5.5 grams rather than pay less for the same one weighing 3.0 - 3.5 grams, does that make sense? the way I worded it?..... however I know little of what most people would pay for these specific types, I don't see them sell too often, I just have what I paid for the two SPES FELICITATIS ORBIS ones I have to go on, which was quite a small amount, even for the nicer of the two.