I thought it would be interesting to construct a "Grid" of grades for comparable coins for the various grading services, but concluded it would be darn near impossible. For example, look at the attached morgan graded "MS66" by PCI: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...&category=39466&sspagename=STRK:MEBWA:IT&rd=1 On a good day, this would get MS-63 by PCGS or NGC. The few MS66 NGC or PCGS Morgans I've seen look near perfect to the naked eye. So we have a 3 point difference. The problem is, I've seen differences ranging from 2 points to 6 points between NGC/PCGS/IGC and the second tier services (PCI, SEGS, NTC, etc.)! Thus it appears the lower tier grading services are inconsistent as well as "liberal" compared with PCGS/NGC. Here's the problem: the seller claims the "trends" value is $900, which is probably what the "MS66" value is in Coin World. In MS-63, the coin might retail for $40. The market puts more credence in the PCGS/NGC grade. An inexperienced buyer might buy the coin for $80, thinking he/she has a bargain. In reality, the buyer paid double retail for the coin. Now I am not saying that this coin will realize $80 from an uninformed buyer, but you hear these stories all the time (and they are written about in books all the time). Now here is my question to the forum: why can't Coin World, CDN, Coin Prices, etc. specifiy that the values reflect, in general, PCGS/NGC/ICG grading standards? Well, one of the answers will be that the grading services have no "generally accepted" grading standards. I guess the ANA still has "official" grading standards, but they are not detailed enough, especially for mint state coins, and no grading service I am aware of states they "adhere" to ANA grading standards. Well, then my question is, will the coin profession ever adopt "generally accepted" grading standards accepted by the ANA, PNG, and the top grading services? A loaded question for sure, but it just seems that the hobby is inviting regulation if some tightened grading standards are not adopted.
ha ha. i absolutely agree with you on this point. again my lack of knowledge and the slabbed coin got me. when i first started seriously getting into this hobby i bought a few raw coins and decided it was time for me to upgrade into the slabbes. well i just jumped onto this site called ebay and ordered me some ms 70 quarters. fat chance. they were graded by these so called slabbers. i dont know if it would get me or this forum into trouble so i will give you a hint on what the companys name was. it starts with a p and c ends in c with only 3 letters. there is no way that these coins are even close to 65 let alone a perfect 70. any way why doesnt ana grade coins? after all they write the books that every one is supposed to follow.
Boy - I could write a book on this subject In fact I think I have Seriously guys - I've probably written more about this subject than any other. And I've been actively proposing reforms within the grading industry for years. But it just aint gonna happen any time soon. Wanna know why ? Simple - because the majority of collectors don't want it to happen. When they do - and demand it - it will happen. Now then - the ANA used to grade coins and slab them. This was when the ANA owned ANACS. But that was some time ago. As it is - the ANA does not even authenticate coins any more. Now to the question - CDN does do this. It's on the front page of every issue. But for the most part - it's meaningless. One week ICG leads the pack - next week it's PCGS. While in reality it doesn't mean much at all. The answer to all this - at least until consistent and universal grading standards are adopted and enforced is to learn to grade yourself. You need to anyway for there will always be raw coins out there to buy. And once you do learn to grade accurately then you can risk looking at coins in 2nd tier slabs for a gem can be found from time to time in any slab. You also need to always remember - there are no hard and fast rules when it comes to slabs - for any of the grading companies. I have seen many overgraded coins in every slab out there. I have also seen undergraded coins in all of them. And accurately graded coins in all of them. For you see - even a blind chicken will find a June bug once in a while There is something else that you should know - grading standards - even the ones used by the ANA have changed over the years. The standards used by the ANA are not as volatile as those used by the grading companies - but still they have changed. Today all of the grading companies use what is known as market grading. What this means is that they assign the highest grade to the given coin that the market will accept. So as people or the market changes - so do the grades. That's why so many folks make such a big deal out of the so called "old holders". Now to continue this discussion things would begin to get rather complicated and quite lengthy. ( I told you it would take a book ) So I'll cut it short here. But that kind of gives you an idea of what is going on and why.
Thanks for your post, GDJMSP. Actually, I am more comfortable now with the grading system than ever before. I have been collecting coins since I was a kid, but got turned off by the market in the late 80s when grading was very inconsistent and coin prices for mint state coins were crazy (i.e. 1881-S Morgans going for $1000 in MS-65). For years, all I did was buy proof sets from the mint, but now have sort of "re-entered" the market because prices are more sane and grading appears to be more consistent. My main concern is people getting ripped off through misleading grading. On the positive side, it seems that the grading system we have now has reduced the huge ripoffs that the FTC clamped down on. It just appears now that small-scale ripoffs are proliferating in areas such as Ebay and TV, which may invite unwanted regulation of the coin industry if the current self-regulation is not tightened. I guess I am somewhat perplexed as to why the dealer/collector community would not want to adopt something like "generally accepted grading standards" (GAGS???). Perhaps there is a natural preference for less regulation, but I would think this would be good as it would help weed out unethical dealers and stave off outside regulation. Frankly, I prefer less regulation too, so I hope I am wrong about unwanted government regulation. By the way, which books did you write???
I agree whole heartly with GDJMSP. Not that it shocks me anymore. The ANA and PNG while having standards, on most instances do not enforce them. The ANA suspends a few people a year for violating rules, but this is over many years. Here is the problem as I see it. (Money) We all know that a few of these bad grading services exist. Now if you were to look through any coin publication you will see their ads along with the top services. Why? (Money). If you attend any show, the bad dealers and grading services are there. Why? (Money). If for some reason the ANA or others talk publicly about these services, they are thanked with multi million dollar law suits. The ANA has standards by which all can follow, but no enforcement will make others accept it. People naturally have their own opinion, and this will never change. While some grading services have better standards, they are still not perfect. Dealers have the same issues. Most are honestly trying to be as consistant as possible. The fix? In my opinion we as dealers and collectors need to publicly voice our opinions of the good ones. Too often we reserve our comments for the bad companies. Many forums have threads on who is bad. I don't see many good dealers being mentioned. If you have a favorite dealer that has consistantly taken care of you, share that information. Let others know. Word of mouth is a powerful thing. If everyone knew who was good, the bad would have to get better or go away.
I remember years ago, my dad told me never buy a car built on a Monday or Friday. His theory (because he seen it first hand) was that the giys were too hung over from the weekend on Monday, and on Friday, they are itching to get out for the weekend. He was serious and would look up the date when the car was made before he would buy. He never had serious trouble with cars, so how could I argue...especially since he was in the auto business. Now follow me on this logic...let's say you are grading on a Friday afternoon before Memorial Day weekend, are you likely to take the same, less or more time in your grading responsibilities? I would tend to believe, they would want to do it faster (all things being equal, espeically if you want to beat California traffic) and your coin might get a break...or not? After reading the previous posts, I remember my Dad's wisdom of buying a GM car from many years ago, and since PCGS is almost 90 days behind for economy service, I was just wondering how I would feel sitting at a desk on a Friday afternoon looking a 100's of coinsper day for certification... Reading the above posts got me thinking since profession grading is still subjective, and not objective as we all would want.
rbm - My comment was somewhat tongue in cheek. I have not actually written a book on this subject - but I have written about it so many times, that if collected my writings would equal several books.
