I have been so busy lately with shows most every weekend, continuous updates and inventory turnover on my website and just general business that I have not had time to type this up and post it. This is my second show report to post on this forum. I specialize is US Philippine coins (1903-1945) but also deal in US Type coins as the US Philippine coins have a smaller collector base. For those of you who did not read my last report, I started dealing full time this month. I do not have a store front but I do have a website (JHRareCoins.com) and try to attend coin shows as often as possible. Foley, AL Show JAN 19th, 20[SUP]th[/SUP] The Foley show is small, 20-30 dealers? I planned to set up with another dealer; I was told he had two tables. Turns out, we had one table so we ended up splitting it and only having two cases each. For many of you who have never been to the Foley show, there are a few good dealers there; a few “hobbyists” and about half are what I would consider “Flea Market dealers”. Needless to say, there was a lot of junk on the floor! I had at least four people tell me that they normally just walk through the show but hardly ever purchase anything due to the lack of better material and were pleasantly surprised to find my two cases. I knew a few of the dealers there and we get along well. There were more than a few though (one’s I would put into the “Flea market Dealer” category) that had utter looks of confusion on their face when I refused to sell my choice coins near bid. Even when I showed a couple of said dealers what the coins were bringing in auction, I was told, “well this isn’t an auction” I replied with “well I don’t need to wholesale them”. It was annoying at the moment but I found it amusing later. I did in fact wholesale a few coins out but they sold for fair prices, which was still above bid for those coins. Let me emphasis here that in no way do I think all of my coins are worth multiple of “bid” or that they are all choice. When you buy collections you do end up with some dreck. The goal, at least my goal is to wholesale that dreck out as soon as possible. Those coins, common and lower grade or with problems, normally sell well under bid, no matter who is buying. One trade of note was with a Proof 3 cent piece that I traded for a very nice Draped Bust Half. I was more than likely underwater in the Proof trime by about 200-300 dollars. It was purchased in a Stacks Bowers auction a little over a year ago and was more of an emotional purchase than a good business sense purchase. The coin had some amazing color, but when you start paying PR66 money for a PR64… your market of available customers shrinks considerably, not to mention that the market is already small for proof trimes! Anyway, a dealer who I get along with and who seems to have similar tastes in coins as myself, fell in love with the coin. He looked at it for literally hours… but we were still off by a few hundred dollars. I then noticed a very nice 1807 Draped Bust Half sitting in a PCGS EF40 holder. I had to add $70 to make the deal but I ended up with a very PQ 1807 with my total cost being $5 under bid. Not only will this coin be easier to wholesale if I need to, but every other dealer I showed it to (myself included) thinks it should be in a 45 holder to boot! End state: I am much more liquid in this coin, very good trade for me! There were very few coins worth looking at during this show, so new additions to the inventory were scarce. I was able to pick up another nice draped bust that was raw. I paid EF money for it (what the dealer had it marked as) but there was no question it was a solid AU50-55. I also picked up a nice 1795 large cent and a few other misc. type coins in the $50-$200 range. Over all, I did well at the show. Not great but enough to come back next year. I was able to obtain a corner table so I will have a lot more room next time. One other instance I recall is at one point on Sunday; a man walked in with a ziplock back and was asking if anyone bought coins. I said I did and he told me he wanted $400 for the bag and said “you should be able to make $250 off of this deal” Anytime someone says that, red flags should be all over that…. Anyway, the bag contained a few silver eagles, some random one ounce rounds and a one gram silver bar… I totaled up the melt value and came up with around $439. I paid him the $400 and he walked away happy (where he got the $250 profit from I will never know…) Later when I was going back through the bag, I realized that I had mistyped on the calculator and I actually paid $100 too much… Not the end of the world but when you’re just starting out and trying to watch every expense... it hurts. No doubt about it, education is expensive no matter where it is obtained. Lessons Learned: Create a checklist of items needed for shows and check everything off before you leave (like lamp mounts ) Don’t be in a hurry, and run those numbers again!
Thanks for this very detailed report from the front-lines. Did you mean "...under ASK" there? What was show attendance, sparse? Would you say the low-ball Bidders assumed you'd accept 'wholesale' because the Gulf Coast mkt is soft?
no, I meant BID. Low end coins, will always be low end coins and are hard to sell to collectors anywhere near the prices commanded by nice material. There are exceptions to everything though. Show attendance was okay, can't complain on that really. I believe the low-ball bidders assumed I would accept wholesale prices because they generally deal with low-end coins and are use to getting low-ball prices. I would say that the market is not soft at all. Quality material is moving fast, low quality material is only moving if it is discounted.
This doesn't makes sense, though. See wikipedia: "Ask price, also called offer price, offer, asking price, or simply ask, is the price a seller states she or he will accept." Bid price is what the BUYER bids (lower, NOT higher) against the Vendor's Ask. So why would the Vendor "sell under bid"? (You totally lost me there.) Maybe something different happens in Alabama. Or among CTers. Honestly I don't understand you folks sometimes. But (to me) it sounds like you switched these terms. And then conflate QUALITY with 'lower grade' (?) a muddle. I thought you/we were talking about the latter ("low quality material is only moving if it is discounted") exclusively. So I'm now confused what you actually mean/meant. I'm also sorry you undercalc'd the Silver value (your Bid, $400.) - what was his Ask, $#? (In that deal, it seems too much inference was going on, that worked against you. Do you see it otherwise?)
Bid and Ask definitions are the same but the functionality is different when it comes to collectable coins. Just because the grey sheet (Coin Dealer Newsletter) has a Bid or Ask listed, does not mean you actually have someone willing to pay that amount for that item. Purchases are routinely conducted under Bid and sold for Bid or even under Bid again. For instance, Coin A is "bid" at $400, I might offer $380 if I have a customer eager to purchase it or I might offer $240 if it is a slow moving item that I might have in inventory for a long time. Another example, Coin B is "bid" at $150 but the actual market is only $120. Therefore "bid" is completely useless and has not been updated yet. Mint and Proof sets as well as Proof Silver eagles are about the only thing I know of that are actually bought and sold close to Bid and Ask numbers. Even then you have multiple people in the loop that all take a cut. I.E. B/M customer is paid 70% of "bid", it is then sold to a wholesale dealer for 90% of "bid", who in turn sells it to a dealer who needs it for inventory at "bid". In the coin market, "Bid" is nothing more than a guide and I have routinely sold coins to customers for under "Bid". "Ask" is mostly useless...
Ohhhhh, you're talking a specific price-quote (cited "Bid" published somewhere) for a particular item in a month/week! Dealer-speak. That wasn't clear from the OP, and thanks for clarification. As for Grey Sheets, I've read the critiques, agree with the doubters, etc. I also wonder how far off the discrepancy from eBay is, approx.
It makes perfect sense Jaun, the reason you don't understand it is because you apparently don't know how the system works. First of all, Bid and Ask are the prices that are listed in the current Grey Sheet. But there is never just 1 Bid or just 1 Ask, there can be hundreds of each. The Grey Sheet however searches through all of the Bids and all of the Asks and they publish the highest Bid (which means there are many Bids that are lower) they can find, and the lowest Ask (which means there are many Asks that higher) they can find, and those 2, just those 2, are the prices listed in their paper. But there is a caveat. The Bid and Ask are only for "good for the grade" coins, they can be raw or slabbed. And since out of a group of say 10 (arbitrary number it can be 20 or 100) coins in any given grade, some of those 10 will be at the low end of that grade, some will be in the middle, and some will be at the high end. Those at the low end are worth less than Bid, those in the middle are worth Bid, and those at the high end are worth more than Bid. So it is quite common, expected even, for a given coin to sell for less than Bid, or more than Bid.
Gulf Shores and plenty of seafood is just 8 minutes from the Foley show. Went to that show a few years ago, it was ok to me. Sold some stuff, didn't buy any though. Ever eat at Wolf Bay Lodge..............mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....:eating:
Not quite, Doug. The reason I didn't understand what he meant is because I cannot read minds. I read the OP clearly, literally, and I know perfectly well what bid/ask are. The OP never mentioned Greysheets or "Bid" (to infer, as you do) what was omitted. He did write this, contrary to your inference: "there are a few good dealers there; a few “hobbyists” and about half are what I would consider “Flea Market dealers”. Needless to say, there was a lot of junk on the floor!" Given subscription cost, I very much doubt Greysheets would be universally employed/referenced by flea mkt dealers who might only offer a few coins of very low quality. And that explains the "silly bids" he received, too. But thanks for the long explanation: it was informative and confirms the near uselessness of Greysheet's Weekly/Monthly "Bid" (as well as "Ask") to peg market-price.
Actually, I have never met a "coin dealer" who did not use the grey sheet, whether they were flea market guys or professionals. They all use it to some extent. On top of that, a large percentage of coin collectors purchase and use the grey sheet. You can purchase single copies for a nominal fee and you are not required to have a subscription.
jhinton- I've heard otherwise. And read otherwise, here. I'm visiting my friend's investment-grade art gallery across town tomorrow (he carries lesser Warhols, Wyeths, etc. $75k - 200k range stuff). There's a busy flea market a block away: I'll ask anyone selling coins if they all use Greysheets. But I do think you need to be abit more precise. You didn't answer my questions either: I wrote "What was show attendance, sparse?" and you gave a non-answer. I wrote "sorry you undercalc'd the Silver value (your Bid, $400.) - what was his Ask, $#? " You didn't say. As for your rookie experience (table flap & Silver fail) well, as you say education is costly no matter when you get schooled.
Juan, whenever anybody, at least anybody who has any familiarity at all with the coin market, uses the terms Bid or Ask, they are specifically talking about the current Bid/Ask published in the Grey Sheet. You see, they know there is no other Bid/Ask. You, apparently don't know that.
Thanks doug, but you're interrupting. The OP didn't write "Bid" either. oh btw: http://www.cointalk.com/t216081/#post1558841 Do you still wrongly think US Mint tolerance for Silver was 1%? You sure got angry about that "correction" - sticks with you still, I see. Burns, huh?
