First of 2017 with a Kiss

I purchased this coin last month, but it arrived today for my first coin for the year. The obverse tells why I'm calling it with a kiss.

LOWER DANUBE CELTS
AR Drachm
OBVERSE: Stylized head of Herakles with wild hair, right
REVERSE: Stylized Zeus seated left holding an eagle, kantharus to left
Struck by the Lower Danube Celts, 2d-1st Century BC
2.9g, 20mm,
CCCBM I 217, Kostial 896
ex JAZ Numismatics

I seem to be searching out Celtic coins here of late. I've bid on many, but always come away without a kiss.

Post your Celtic coins.

 

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Nice choice , very unusual style with these. Mines a little pitted.

 

Great first coin for 2017 Bing, just a shame I haven't got any Celtic coins, I might have to start tapping into JAZ Numismatics has he got a web address?

 

It's John Anthony here on CT. Start a conversation with him. He has an auction nearly every week. Some great coins at good prices.

 

Thanks will do.

 

Cool new celtic addition, big-bro ... congrats on getting an early start on your 2017 collection

 

Can someone explain why all examples of the OP type are off-center in exactly the same way? I wrote the CoinForgeryDiscusionList about them in March 2012 after having seen many. Then in June 2012 I wrote

"Long ago I was noticing exactly the same off-centering of all
examples. I thought that might mean they were modern copies, but I
didn't (and still don't) know enough about Celtic to condemn them on
any other grounds. So, I kept watching.
Now, many (30?) examples later they still *all* have this
same off-centering, although some have two dots outside the beading.
It is time for me to bring this to the attention of our
group. I solicit additional thoughts."

Most were on eBay and only one of the links I had still works:

https://www.ma-shops.de/poinsignon/...en&PHPSESSID=367ea8ea47ff974616dfcbfa85fa218f

In my opinion this off-centering common to all examples is a bad sign. Can anyone explain it?

 

That's nice, I like that one.

 

I'm all for getting down to the facts and truth. Mine has many corrosion pits and I can see crystallization under 45 times magnification. I've always had it as a Lanz 897, but have no recollection on how I came to that reference? Here are a couple not as off centered.


More stylized than mine I would say. And a 896

I'm not sure to which you are referring to from 2012, but these are similar

However I don't see any die links. The eyes, nose, and mouths are all in different positions not to mention the the reverses are also different. Are there 30 you feel are identical?

 

I must admit I don't recall the details of the 30.

The 2 March and 6 April 2014 examples look obverse die identical to me. The others are very similar and the reverses remarkably similar--possibly die-identical with slightly different strikes, or slight retouching of a die with wear.

If those are not all from one die, possibly retouched (as with the two dots I mentioned but have not illustrated) I wonder why a celator would engrave the next die to be nearly identical to the previous die--it is not like they had someone's portrait to reproduce.

I see those five as effectively the same "die" possibly retouched a few times. The first three examples of David@PC are clearly not the same style. They are different. I don't doubt them. The five Naumann examples are the type and style with the off-centering I was writing about. I doubt them.

 

Thats a cool addition!

 

That would be a study for someone to do. What you are saying is possible, and is a reminder to know the type before purchasing. These are a simpler design which may be more of an incentive for someone to copy, but I can't make an opinion at this time without more information.

 

I really like the Celtic Drachm Mr @Bing ! The stylized Zeus kinda reminds me of a Ghost! But, I really enjoy the Celtic Style.

I feel they imitated, but were NOT purposefully imitating to be exact. Rather, I feel the Celts were adding their style to everything they touched. Looking at their Art and metal crafting, you see a real distinctiveness that is very cool.

I do not have many Celts... but I have a lot Celtic Heritage and plan to do more research into their coins... I am rethinking these little guys.


Celtic Imitation Philip II drachm


Celtic Imitation Philip II drachm Kugelwangel type


Celtic Britain Inceni Boudicca 61 CE 1.03g Celt Hd r Celtic horse galloping Scarce

 

I've really been busy all day, and I'm just getting a chance to respond. So, what is the consensus regarding my coin: real or fake? I would hate to do it, but if the prevailing thought is that it is fake, I will return it. JA gives a lifetime and satisfaction guarantee. I like the coin, but then again, I have a couple of other fakes I liked enough to buy as authentic. Here is the coin again:

 

... just jokes, brother ...

I hope it's a winner

 

Looks alright to me, there might be a chance that the Celts in their endeavour to mimic the Alexander III coins actually made the obverse dies off centre on purpose having seen the originals themselves and trying to look authentic. That might explain why slight differences in obverse dies indicating a few were made. Only an opinion but got me interested enough to go after one myself.

 

Well, I examined the OP coin very closely before I sold it, and nothing about the fabric seemed wrong. I'm not sure you can draw any conclusions about the preponderance of off-center obverse strikes in a particular direction, because it appears to have been the style among many Celtic drachms. Perhaps the dies were hinged together in such a way as to produce consistently off-center strikes to the left? As David points out, there are no die pairs among the Naumann coins. I think what we're seeing is the work of one particular engraver that had a unique, simplistic style. I would guess that if someone was forging these issues, they would not make the blunder of off-center strikes in a particular direction on every coin.

Here is another one that CNG saw fit to approve with the same fabric and dimensions of the OP and Naumann coins.

All that being said. Bing: if owning the coin makes you nervous, send that sucker back!

 

Unless there is more information leading to the thought it may be fake, I plan to keep it.

 

that noodle arm zeus is crazy, and the sonic the hedgehog hercules is killer!


here's mine of the same basic time and area....



CELTIC, Lower Danube, Uncertain tribe. 2nd century B.C. AR Drachm

O: Head of Herakles wearing lionskin headdress knotted at throat, right. R: Zeus enthroned holding eagle. 17mm 3.42g Lanz 939 EX. mat!