Fake patina?

I know it's hard to tell from pictures, but I just got this auction win in the post and it just doesn't look right to me. I've seen very few Celtic coins with iridescent toning. But I have seen it on a few of this type. It could be because they all developed the toning at the same time, of course, but could that happen if it was a hoard, presumably underground and not exposed to air? Or it could have been added before the hoard was sold. Or they could all be fakes. I know it's hard to tell from pictures, but if anyone's willing to speculate I'd be grateful. Sorry for picture quality, but I had to compromise to get the toning.

 

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Looks to me a coin cleaned a long time ago and now toning down. I have seen countless numbers like this.

 

Thank you. That's good to hear! I got from reputable source (Triskeles, with Chris Rudd provenance), and I've seen others with Roma. But recent discussion of fake patina has worried me.

 

nice example of the type

 

Patina and toning are related but rather different things. Coins cleaned and placed out in the air will tone but not form a thick covering from being buried in the ground which is what we call patina. Many people reserve the word patina for bronze coins. Toning can be sped up by exposing the coin to sulphur fumes, heat or just living in a place with air pollution. Patina needs a more complex situation over a longer time. Exactly what you call fake and acceptable is a matter of opinion. Whether this coin darkened naturally after cleaning a hundred years ago or got a boost from fumes (environmental or assisted) last year is not something I worry about much. Natural is better but I'm not telling the difference from a photo and maybe not in hand.

 

My feelings about deliberate silver toning are different from deliberate bronze patina creation, although even with bronze, repatination isn't always a bad thing.

For silver coins-- all of which have been cleaned-- does it really matter if the patina you see at this moment in time formed over 50 years, 5 years, 1 year, or 1 hour? At some point in its distant future, unless storage conditions are meticulous someone is likely to clean it again and the cycle will repeat.

For bronze coins-- repatination is a an accepted step in conservation when a coin had to be cleaned to bare metal (dealers-- please correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I have been told by some reputable companies). There are many bronze patina formulations. As we've discussed may times on CoinTalk, this is different from the application of thick pigmented opaque substances done for the purposes of hiding pits and erosions and to make the devices more visible. The application of such "makeup" might harm the coin and most people here view the practice as deceptive.

As for the OP coin, it looks fine to me. If you don't like it, clean it and let it re-tone slowly.

(oops, I was too wordy and typed too slowly. Doug just posted essentially the same thing)

 

Thanks - v helpful. I do like the patina, and it was a reason for wanting the coin in the first place. But in hand it looked rather more 'stark' than in the original picture. There was a thread recently about an eBay seller who does add fake 'golden irridiescence' to ancient coins, and that I object to. I don't mind that coins might have toned fairly recently, but I confess to feeling a bit uneary about, for example, coins deliberately exposed to pollution to try to encourage particular colours in the tone.

 

I think I know the eBay seller you're talking about. Recently I browsed that person's offerings and compared their photos to the recent auction house photos (the eBay seller had won the coins in a recent Naville auction). I'm not entirely certain that the eBay seller monkeyed around with some of the coins. The Naville images, like so many auction house photos, are rather unsaturated. I've had many coins which didn't show iridescence in auction photos but with careful lighting, tilting the coin juuuuust right and with the optimum camera settings and white balance, dramatic iridescence can be seen. Maybe that eBay seller is doing that but I suspect the images also undergo drastic and deliberate boosting of color saturation during image processing. Also, some digital cameras automatically boost color, saturation, and contrast so a boosted image might not always be a deliberate deception.

At least one of our CoinTalk members has bought coins from this eBay seller. Maybe he will chime in on what his super-iridescent coins look like in hand compared to her images.

 

This type of toning happens naturally if the coin was kept in old manilla envelope's. I have quite a few in my collection like this. Over time though they go from iridescent to dark black.

Dealer photos tend to be overexposed and not a very good representation of the coin in hand. I've scored some beautifully toned examples because of this.

 

@Nerva, here's one of those eBay coins with her images and Naville's images. In this instance I think the color and saturation were boosted in the new images (either by her camera's default processing or by purposeful postprocessing), but in this case I don't find her images deceitful and nothing was done to the coin itself. Naville's images are just very desaturated.



The listing's title was an eye-roller though, but that's eBay :

"Mussidius Longus.Very rare gold iridescent tone Ancient Roman Coin.Sim.Sold$3000"

Uhm, "rare gold iridescent tone"? What is rare about that? Similar coin sold for $3000? Perhaps, but it would have been a much better strike and in better condition. A similar coin may have sold for $3000 but this exact coin sold for US$200 less than a month before this ebay sale.

 

Seller certainly has a talent for flattering photography, even if not so much for marketing blurbs. Although maybe some people like that sort of thing! $200 seems good for this. I do want one of these sewer gods.

 

I agree 100% with what you are saying, and will add that the toning silver acquires is not generally stable either. If the process is not stopped, it will continue and further harm the coin. And yet, when I purchase silver, I am attracted to old cabinet toning... Go figure.

Again agree 100% here, and thanks for that link to the patina formations, I have never seen that before. Unlike silver, bronze undergoes a patination process naturally that often leaves a stable surface. Once the patina has developed, it is no longer chemically active, unlike bronze in it's natural and fresh state. It's exactly because of the stability of bronze patina that I believe repatination of bronze coins is acceptable. If the coin has to be stripped to bare medal, the process of repatination also protects the underlying coin. With that said, my preference is for untouched bronze coins in as found condition, but I do not avoid coins with repatination as I do for coins with makeup applied.

 

Sorry, how does toning damage silver?

 

Ex Chris Rudd is wonderful provenance, he will not have monkeyed around with it. I would not change its appearance, I think it looks fabulous.

 

I thought I had read that on cointalk, but now I am less sure. It appears that silver toning, or tarnish, may also create a protective layer and eventually become stable. I didn't get a conclusive answer in my 20 minutes of googling...

https://www.cointalk.com/threads/what-you-need-to-know-about-the-science-of-toning.84670/

 

Technically it is damage, but on a microscopic level.

 

The recently sold ones don't appear to have been altered, but the fake toning will likely return soon...

Heres another one from @ancientcoins.market that has an obviously fake patina... before + after
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/CATO-the-Eld...=item4665b57e7c:g:5SsAAOSwXetZRquT&rmvSB=true





Here is another one i looked into



fake 16th century pedigree
- improved the grade from VF to MS⭐️
- said similar coin sold for 13,400"
- but forgot to give this one fake toning

"This coin is much better in hand, because photos are done with amateur camera."
"Why spend a lot of money in big auction houses ? Buy from us!!!!"

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/JULIUS-CAESA...708051?hash=item51f8929953:g4kAAOSwfRdZHh08

 

The cycle of tone/clean/tone/clean will damage silver but when left to tone to full black does the tone penetrate deeper into the coin or stop when the outer skin is formed? It is not damage if the change just is not our preferred color. The Statue of Liberty is copper but has been green for some time. If it were made of silver, it would be black. When does change become damage?

My favorite black silver coin will not be cleaned while I own it.
Caracalla AR drachm Caesarea Mt. Argaeus

 

Well, thats sad. If you look at his completed listings he is clearly applying this toning artificially. Also I thought this statement he uses frequently to be funny: "Why spend a lot of money in big auction houses ?"

Why, because you would pay less there than with him! BUT, I am a capitalist. Good for him for getting high prices, but shame for messing with the coins.