Hi all. Dumb question for all the ancient collectors out there. I'm a US collector but I did send away for uncleaned ancients, just for the experience of cleaning and trying to ID them. My question is, if purchasing a common, low priced coin, how does the inexperienced know it's not a fake? Besides 1. experience, which most likely will not happen if just a casual collector, 2. patina, which I would think could be applied, and 3. purchasing from a reputable dealer, is there any dead giveaways?
From my rather limited experience, the primary 'giveaways' are actually all that you listed, eventually they mutually reinforce one another. Besides 'due diligence'---- doing a bit of comparative research---- I largely depend on the 'expert' services of the major auction houses and/or a very trusted dealer. Checking against the listed known 'fakes/forgeries' is always recommended as well. Unfortunately 'fakes' do fall through the cracks and I'm sure all of us have one or two still lurking in our collections. The rest of the CT gang will undoubtedly have quite a bit more to say on this subject than I do
Some of the tells on moderns exist in ancients - like if a struck coin looks cast, visible seam, style is off. Good luck with your uncleaned lot, I hope you get a couple winners. My understanding is it takes time and patience and that many of lots are full of cull coins. @YOC HAS had success with his lots.
Hmm. There's not one simple answer but here are a few tips in addition to those you already mentioned: 1. The presence of a casting seam might indicate a fake. Be aware though that many flans were cast, and you might be seeing that seam. 2. Casting sprues. Same cautions as above. 3. "Casting pearls"-- little round bubbles of metal scattered on the coin's surface. The casting process involves pouring a plaster-like substance around a wax copy of the coin. If there are small air bubbles in the plaster, they'll cause these "pearls" when such a bubble is against the wax. 4. Finding an exact duplicate or duplicates of the coin, including flan shape and other irregularities, means that it is fake unless it was the host coin-- and the odds of such a coin being the host are slim. 5. Check various archives and websites for similar examples to see how they should look (style), keeping in mind that styles for a given coin vary widely since each die was made by hand. CNG's archives, ACsearch, CoinProject, etc. 6. Check forgery databases (on Forvm, and ForgeryNetwork) 7. Look for similar currently for sale coins in Vcoins, Numisbids, and Sixbid. Fakes are occasionally unknowingly (or even knowingly or through carelessness) seen on those sites so keep that in mind. 8. Ask ancients collectors here on CoinTalk, but if the coin is currently up for auction it is best to do so by private message rather than with a public post. It is generally not possible to declare a coin authentic or fake with complete certainty based solely on pictures.
Oh since your coming from U.S. coins - NGC does not guarantee authenticity. If you do end up looking at slabbed ancients, particularly on GreatCollections, the prices are very inflated.
You might already know this, but please don't use electrolysis to clean the coins; it will strip not only the dirt and gunk but also the desirable natural patina off the coins. Stick to safer methods such as soaking them in distilled water or olive oil (though this might darken the coins).
They have been in olive oil for well over a year (or 2) with oil changes, no filter necessary, every 6 - 8 months. They came out quite "clean" but very worn. And hard to ID.
They were probably 'very worn and hard to I.D.' when they went in. Olive oil is unlikely to 'wear' a (genuine) ancient coin, by soaking.
Pics didn't come out with much detail. I have a nice Nikon with a macro lens attached to a god tripod, but a good clear pic is eluding me. I have been reading SuperDave's, and others, post but don't want to spend more on a different camera. I think I just need to find a better procedure using what I have.
Ummm, I'm fairly sure that doug will chime-in soon enough with his cool set-up ... he has been there and done that (oh, and he's thrifty => so he'll tell ya the best and least expensive way of doin' it) Oh, and TIF nailed it as far as the best-practice for determining if a coin is fake, or sweet (again, please don't post live-auction coins .... her request for PM-messages is a far more appropriate means of doin' biz)
http://www.forumancientcoins.com/dougsmith/coinphoto2011ez1.html I have too many photo pages but all are linked fro the above if you wish to look. I really would prefer beginners buy identified and already cleaned coins rather than uncleaned lots. By the time you get good at cleaning them (if ever - some of us, myself included, just are not suited). Decent examples of the types usually found in uncleaned lots can be bought for $5 to $20 just depending on where and how pretty they are. How many uncleaned coins do you have to buy to get the same return? If you find cleaning fun (like YOC and his son) go for it; if you want coins, let someone who knows how do it for a while anyway.
Why would someone fake an ancient coin? 1) if it is rare, when buying coins over $20 or so, you might run into fakes...see what @TIF has to say 2) Costume jewelry often used (and uses) ancient coins, but usually they will either be quite bad or will have loops or stubs where loops used to be. If you get too frustrated taking photos, lay the coins down on a scanner and scan them...quality not too good, but sufficient for identification sometimes.
I definitely do most of these things (some as just another part of the buying process, searching for comparables and such). It seems like the forgery databases listed aren't very easy to use, however. I tried doing a search on ForgeryNetwork for a coin that was supposed to have shipped from the Netherlands but actually came addressed from Bulgaria (not exactly a red flag given the look of the coin, but a soft yellow flag). I found the site fairly difficult to navigate. Any tips on getting maximum value out of the forgery dbs?
I regularly troll ebay and I mean almost every other day for a few hours seeking out nice uncleaned lots/single coins to clean. In my experience, if you are buying a lot of say 10 or more dirt encrusted coins or even semi clean coins you are highly unlikely to come across any fakes. Those that are fake are generally single large 1st and 2nd century bronze sestertius etc or shiny perfect examples of 4th century coins, which to be fair to the sellers are generally advertised as copies. I have NEVER found a fake coin in an uncleaned lot..... and that is pretty good going as I have bought a lot of uncleaned coins. Look for coins which show good detail under the dirt. Soak in demineralised water for however long you can bear..... or soak in a sodium sesquicarbonate solution and lightly brush with a toothbrush to remove dirt and change the water every week or sooner if its really dirty. patience is the key for soil found coins, but there are quicker methods for high quality group coins which you will struggle to get professional cleaners to part with. (in fact they wont part with them...its their livelihood). When I first started cleaning, I looked for coins that had encrustations, but ones which you could also see a proportion of the surface to assess how sound the metal was. I'd then use a binocular microscope and a blunt scalpel to pick away...great great fun, but time consuming. if in doubt or you see a lot you like, PM me with pictures and I'll give you my honest opinion. the above coin just required some 'tarting up' to remove light hoard deposits and the almost full silvering was revealed. This one remains in my collection of high grade Galerius. Some may prefer the light green crust...I dont, so i cleaned the coin sympathetically to leave it in mint state, ie. the way it was when the die was lifted. others can be more heavily encrusted and what is underneath may never have been too good in the first place... like this one. BOTH of these from ebay for a reasonable price. if this is helping you as to what coins to look out for, I'll post another reply with some more before and after....?
The first here, was never a very good coin under the dirt, so maybe cleaning revealed its imperfections? I dont know.... but I prefer it cleaned. This campgate was heavily silvered and I could tell that from its ebay picture, even under the light dirt... when cleaned it really sparkled from its silvering. The striations on the reverse are I believe lines where the silvering ran during the manufacturing process?? they are certainly not cleaning scratches and they run from edge to edge....
